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[WIP] Full Throttle
[VIP] Full Throttle Posted on [25/05/2020] à 16:32

Hello everyone,


Since my return, I've been browsing the forum for updates. One topic that comes up regularly is the problem of the fragility of Light Vehicles in the Heroes System. In fact, when I discuss it with you or look at the armies played in tournaments, Light Vehicles are played very little because they have a hard time surviving the first few rounds of the game. Troop transports are an exception and seen more often, but they often just serve as kamikaze vehicles: players move them as far as possible, disembark troops on an advantageous position and sacrifice their transport vehicle, preferably making it a shield or a barricade to block a passage… it's a good and fun tactic, but it's not very realistic.


This is all the more unfortunate as Light Vehicles are one of the three main unit types of the Heroes System.


As some of you may know, Devil Pig Games is listening to the feedback from its community and has regularly updated the Heroes System by incorporating comments or changes from fan rules when it helped improve the game.


So Yann, Clem and I have been working on this Light Vehicle issue. The goal: to find a simple rule, using existing mechanics, preferably with a Hollywood touch, allowing you to get your Light Vehicles out of the garage. A red line not to be crossed: this rule should not require reprinting Light Vehicles or their Recruitment Options… it’s a simple question of not making Light Vehicles obsolete.


Today, I have the dangerous privilege of presenting this rule to you and seeking your opinion:


Full Throttle


A unit receives a Full Throttle marker when it moves 5 or more spaces during its Movement Action, without passing through the same space twice. When activated, this fast-moving unit keeps the Full Throttle marker as long as it performs a Movement Action with the aforementioned conditions, otherwise the Full Throttle marker is discarded.


A unit with a Full Throttle marker:

● Can perform Firing Actions (with the Fire on the Move special ability), and can be the

target of a Firing Action. In both cases the long range penalty applies, starting beyond 3

squares.

● Can perform Assaults as normal.

● Cannot be the target of Assaults.

● Cannot perform Alternate Firing Actions.

● Cannot be embarked.

● Cannot be disembarked.

Units inside a vehicle with a Full Throttle marker:

● Cannot perform Firing Actions.



Modification of the Ace Driver special ability.


In addition to the existing rules, a light vehicle with the Ace Driver special ability has the advantages of a Full Throttle marker but does not suffer the corresponding disadvantages.


Please note that this applies to the light vehicle and not to any units on board or wishing to board the vehicle.


Note: the Full Throttle rule applies not only to Light Vehicles but to all units with a Movement Value of 5 or more… limiting it to Light Vehicles seemed artificial to us. We checked the units that would benefit from this rule, there should be no side effect…



At this stage, this is not yet an official rule.

We are submitting it to you for discussion.


If it is made official, it will be added to the Compendium's Additional Rules (such as Moral, Fire, Weather Conditions, …ace driver). It would therefore be an optional rule unless you overwhelmingly request that it be included in the main body of the rules. This officialization could simply take the form of a downloadable PDF with most likely one scenario per Heroes

System WWII range (HoN, SoN, HoS) to honor light vehicles.


It could also take the form of a card printed in a product around light vehicles. I won't tell you more about this at this point. I prefer to let you fantasize about what this product could be. We

know you’ll love it.


Again, I'm listening to your opinions. Feel free to test it out before making any returns.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 03:23

First of all, welcome back! Awesome to have you back and see the DPG team in action again at full throttle 🙂


I like this idea so far. Question, “Cannot be disembarked”. How do we bring it back down to normal speed? For example if a unit that is in full throttle needs to move just one square during the next turn and have the units disembark, how do I do that? Do I just call it out?


Happy HoN player in Toronto.

[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 07:45

You just move 0-4 squares and you lose the full throttle counter. Without the full throttle counter, you use normal rules for the vehicle, which includes the ability to disembark the passengers.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 07:48

I like the proposed rules so far. Need to try them out in a game.


I guess some recon force vs. recon force game is in order (i.e. LOTS of light vehicles on the table). Not sure I have the time for this until the weekend.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 08:50

Citation de Colhammer Le [26/05/2020] à 07:45

You just move 0-4 squares and you lose the full throttle counter. Without the full throttle counter, you use normal rules for the vehicle, which includes the ability to disembark the passengers.


That's right.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 08:51

Citation de Colhammer Le [26/05/2020] à 07:48

I like the proposed rules so far. Need to try them out in a game.


I guess some recon force vs. recon force game is in order (i.e. LOTS of light vehicles on the table). Not sure I have the time for this until the weekend.


Don't worry. You have time to test. We're not going to introduce a rule without testing it thoroughly with you. :mrgreen:


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 13:15

I really like this change and that light vehicles could be more playable.

A custom rule my wife and me are using to let them survive a little longer was to add the modular damage from heavy vehicles for the light ones as well.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 13:44

I looked through my light vehicles and found that on average the defense value is 6. panzerfaust and the average tank shot is +5 vs light vehicles meaning that you have a 66% chance to hit and destroy if the light vehicle had Full throttle. That is better than the 100% that was present before. It makes it unlikely that a general unit with +1/+2 vs light vehicles can destroy it now, but if my transport vehicles now can't deploy units in the supply phase or on the same turn than that takes away from the usefulness and the reason why I would put it in my army. To me, this rule would make the best use for them as a moving wall just to block line of sight for tanks and infantry and prevent my opponent from picking up objectives.


There are also cards (advance) that give units +2 movement which would give them full throttle. Could go on a tank or an infantry.


Which if they have the move and shoot ability *including light vehicles*. They could shoot and then move 5 spaces to gain the full throttle token and avoid the 3 range penalty. Or move 4 spaces shoot, and then move the fifth to gain the token. To me this is the most dangerous part of this ability.


The wording is when activated if it does not move 5 spaces during its move action it will lose full throttle. If I give it full throttle on the first turn I can keep moving it any amount of spaces during the supply phase on subsequent turns and it wont lose full throttle because it is not being activated. I could also just ignore this ability and only move my light vehicles during the supply phase to use the full movement value and unload all of my units if it does not already have the full throttle marker.


Blast patterns and indirect fire which is not impacted by limited range would ignore the range penalty defense that the vehicle is getting. Meaning grenades with +2 still have a 50% chance (destroy on a 4+) against light vehicles.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 14:06

Quote from Afatman on [26/05/2020] à 13:44

There are also cards (advance) that give units +2 movement which would give them full throttle. Could go on a tank or an infantry.


The idea is to enable Full Throttle for units with a bare Movement Value of 5 or more, not for units that got boosted through special abilities, cards or recruitment options, … The rules will get an update on this part.


Quote from Afatman on [26/05/2020] à 13:44

Which if they have the move and shoot ability *including light vehicles*. They could shoot and then move 5 spaces to gain the full throttle token and avoid the 3 range penalty. Or move 4 spaces shoot, and then move the fifth to gain the token. To me this is the most dangerous part of this ability.


The Fire on the Move special ability does not change a Movement Action into a Firing Action.


It's true that the timing specification of the Full Throttle mechanic could be improved.


Do you need to announce such a Full Throttle Movement Action?


When exactly do you get the Full Throttle marker? I think it's the idea to get it before the Movement Action of the vehicle, i.e. the range penalty applies immediately.


The Supply Phase needs to be defined as well. An activation also happens in the Supply Phase, I think.


And indeed, what about abilities that ignore long range, like Sniper, Howitzer, Indirect Fire or Hawk-Eyed?


☠☠☠Heroes of Belgium ☠☠☠

[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 15:55

Citation de bartdevuyst Le [26/05/2020] à 14:06

Do you need to announce such a Full Throttle Movement Action?


Yes


Citation de bartdevuyst Le [26/05/2020] à 14:06

When exactly do you get the Full Throttle marker? I think it's the idea to get it before the Movement Action of the vehicle, i.e. the range penalty applies immediately.


At the beginning of the movement


Citation de bartdevuyst Le [26/05/2020] à 14:06

The Supply Phase needs to be defined as well. An activation also happens in the Supply Phase, I think.


Yes the rule applies in the Activation phase and in the Reserve phase. I'll have to rephrase that.


Citation de bartdevuyst Le [26/05/2020] à 14:06

And indeed, what about abilities that ignore long range, like Sniper, Howitzer, Indirect Fire or Hawk-Eyed?


Their rule continues to apply. They make the marker useless…


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 15:58

Citation de evilSpike Le [26/05/2020] à 13:15

A custom rule my wife and me are using to let them survive a little longer was to add the modular damage from heavy vehicles for the light ones as well.


As I explained on the French forum, this makes light vehicles too powerful for their cost. And it makes the difference between light and heavy vehicles, which is one of the foundations of the Heroes System, almost disappear.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 17:50

Quote from gduprez on [26/05/2020] à 15:58


Citation de evilSpike Le [26/05/2020] à 13:15

A custom rule my wife and me are using to let them survive a little longer was to add the modular damage from heavy vehicles for the light ones as well.


As I explained on the French forum, this makes light vehicles too powerful for their cost. And it makes the difference between light and heavy vehicles, which is one of the foundations of the Heroes System, almost disappear.



With the current power level of light vehicles they are not worth the current cost. I would say some play testing would need to be done to gauge whether they would be too powerful with the modular damage. +5 panzerfaust/tank 100% destroys every light vehicle to begin with. and mg42 or grenade/rifle grenade has a 50% chance to destroy currently. a unit with +1 still has a 33% chance to hit. you do not even need to roll for it with panzerfaust/tanks. You could add penetrating when targeting any light vehicle as an additional rule to give a 33% chance to destruction, 33% chance of receiving 2 suppression tokens, and 33% chance to either destroy the gun or remove the treads. The next shot is a 66% – 50% chance of destruction. A unit already with penetrating would receive a +2 bonus against light vehicles when determining damage allocation.


What also separates light and heavy vehicles is the side/rear armor and having two weapons to fire. As well as the ability to carry units and high mobility for light vehicles. What makes light vehicles worse than infantry is their lack of cover, ability to enter buildings, take objectives, and mobility in terrain. I do not think either change would cause a light vehicle meta, but I could be wrong.


I still need to playtest it, but I dont see Full throttle changing how I would use my light vehicle as it would still be an easy target for my opponent's grenades,tanks, or panzerfaust and I would be cowardly keeping a 4 space distance from enemy units which you already have to do to avoid panzerfaust except it is 5 spaces to avoid it due to its range. If anything it feels like a nerf since my units can not disembark until I reactivate it.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 18:17

If light vehicles were not made out of butter I would utilize the ability to have an infantry fire from it. Full throttle makes them no longer butter, but removes the ability for infantry to fire from, enter, or leave the vehicle. I think the goal should be to try and have players be comfortable keeping their units in the light vehicle and utilize the ability to fire from them. Maybe I am a minority, but I feel that is currently the most unused mechanic.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 20:51

Citation de Afatman Le [26/05/2020] à 17:50

What also separates light and heavy vehicles is the side/rear armor and having two weapons to fire. As well as the ability to carry units and high mobility for light vehicles. What makes light vehicles worse than infantry is their lack of cover, ability to enter buildings, take objectives, and mobility in terrain. I do not think either change would cause a light vehicle meta, but I could be wrong.


This is true of the current Heroes System WW2 range. Not in the Heroes System in general… and it doesn't take into account some of the historic vehicles that might come out.


Citation de Afatman Le [26/05/2020] à 17:50

I still need to playtest it, but I dont see Full throttle changing how I would use my light vehicle as it would still be an easy target for my opponent's grenades,tanks, or panzerfaust…


That's pretty realistic, so… 😉


Citation de Afatman Le [26/05/2020] à 17:50

… and I would be cowardly keeping a 4 space distance from enemy units which you already have to do to avoid panzerfaust except it is 5 spaces to avoid it due to its range.


Not cowardly. Prudent and yet realistic again. Light vehicles are not assault vehicles. Assault transports do not appear until much later in history and they are tanks not light vehicles. :mrgreen:


We try to keep credible mechanics in the chosen theme (World War II for HoN). We don't do simulation but we try to get closer to something realistic. We can't prevent players from optimizing the rules and it would be wrong to deprive them of it… but we can modify the GamePlay to force you to adapt their use of this or that type of units.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [26/05/2020] à 21:51

I've not played enough to comment on the details of the rules but one thing I would say is that the final result should allow you to represent the charge attacks of Long Range Desert Group jeeps. I'd say that firing on the move needs to be a thing for that to happen?


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [27/05/2020] à 04:20

Quote from Paul Holden on [26/05/2020] à 21:51

I've not played enough to comment on the details of the rules but one thing I would say is that the final result should allow you to represent the charge attacks of Long Range Desert Group jeeps. I'd say that firing on the move needs to be a thing for that to happen?


I am old enough to remember Rat Patrol, and the whole vehicles moving full tilt while firing is a very Hollywood thing. Of course, they never actually HIT anything (because 60's TV), so perhaps an extra big Fire on the Move penalty for going Full Throttle is a better answer? That way you can burn a big chunk of ammo to do it one time in a particularly dramatic moment?


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[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [27/05/2020] à 12:55

I also might not played that much of the game as others for sure. But I also noticed the "low" survivability of light vehicles. Units like Tanks and Bazookas/Panzerschrecks have a high attack bonus which often kills them instantly. A lot of other Units are (even without bonus) often capable of damaging light vehicles. Considering the point costs the player often prefers other units like Infantry


One of the main advantages of light vehicles should be speed and a "status" like full throttle fits the theme quiet well. Maybe this could also be used to buff their survivalbility in the field. Maybe give them a buff on their armor value for this. If they are fast they are propably harder to hit. If they loose the Full Throttle token, they are slower and therefore easier to hit.


I guess that the rule with the long range penalty applying after 3 squares already aims at that?


Not saying that my idea is any good. I just would love to give the light vehicles something that players make them choose make them "competitive" against Infantry and heavy vehicles.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [27/05/2020] à 14:33

Quote from gduprez on [26/05/2020] à 20:51

That's pretty realistic, so… 😉


I agree it is realistic, I just dont think the odds are. Which is why the idea of the damage system interests me. Most of the light vehicles are armored to some degree, but they all feel like paper. Any hit, even with an assault or a guy with a pistol rolling a lucky 6 is absolute destruction.


Quote from gduprez on [26/05/2020] à 20:51

Not cowardly. Prudent and yet realistic again. Light vehicles are not assault vehicles. Assault transports do not appear until much later in history and they are tanks not light vehicles. :mrgreen:


This is where I am confused with your goal then. Full throttle appears to help them assault, move up the lines, take fire, and push for territory. It takes away from the unit's ability to be an effective prudent transport. If you want us to just play prudently with them then their current mechanics work. I can transport a unit from one side of the battlefield to another effectively. I just need to position my light vehicle defensively. Which if the intention was to still do that with Full throttle, then all you have done is nerf transports.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [27/05/2020] à 15:29

Maybe light vehicles are too slow to begin with or everything else is too fast. Most infantry units like recon teams, squad leaders, tanks, and the like can move 4 spaces. And now we are proposing that moving 5 spaces makes you so fast it is hard to hit you. Usain Bolt's 100m sprint clocked in at 28mph or 45 kmph. To say all of our infantry are sprinting at this speed is unrealistic, but 25% faster (moving 5 spaces) is 35 mph or 56 kph. To say our light vehicles are only going the speed of city driving is also unrealistic in the opposite end of the spectrum.


[WIP] Full Throttle Posted on [27/05/2020] à 17:07

Thx I think Full throttle won’t fix anything for light vehicles to be more playable.

Their main problem is that they are too expensive for the fact they die too fast.

Like afatman said, even a lucky 6 is mostly enough if it’s not a at unit.


About the modular damage we never had the feeling they are too op, but my wife is always so lucky with dices, lagst game my Tiger was killed instantly just because she is so unbelievable lucky 😉


But we could at least test this easy in the tabletop simulator (ofc if some of you own it^^)

There we could test also full throttle if it really makes a difference


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