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Dagger vs. Knife
Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [24/09/2021] à 01:28

Hi everybody!


I'm hoping that I can get some clarification about the way the hero customization (white-trimmed) knives and the recruitment option commando/fallschirmjager knives work, and if they can be used together in a single assault.


Can you use all 3 commando knives in a single combat action? Can you use 3 identical hero customization daggers? Or are such weapons limited to one per assault? Do the hero knives (with the white trim) work exactly the same as the recruitment option commando/fallschirmjager knives?


This leads me to another question: could Mad Jack Churchill use 3 commando knives AND 3 hero knives in a single assault (meaning 6 knives used for a single action)? Do the different colours and appearances of the upgrades (despite them being the same knives in function) make them "identical"? I'm assuming that can you only use 3 "melee weapon" equipment options of the same *type* in a single battle – regardless of trim colour or appearance – meaning only 3 daggers could be used at a time. They cost and function the same besides the appearances. Are the SS Daggers and the Level Up Knives considered to be "identical" despite very slight differences in appearance? Does "identical" simply mean "same type" ie dagger/knives that have the white trim? Are the commando knives therefore also "identical" to the hero daggers for the same reason?


If the different coloured knives (hero+commando knives) could be used for Mad Jack in a single Assault, it would mean he would get a total Assault value of 17 (+6 Assault from 3 hero knives, +6 Assault from 3 commando knives, +5 base Assault ability). That seems off. I assume that all the different colours and types of knives/daggers are considered to be "identical" based on their description as "melee weapons," so that only up to 3 daggers of any type could be used in a single assault. Am I correct about this?


I have another quick question: The rules for Life Point are from "the weird side of Normandie" section of the rulebook. However, Life Point matches with standard HoN heroes with it's white trim, and the rules work seamlessly with HoN. Is Life Point considered to be "tournament legal" for HoN games, or are they only intended to be used with Guardians Chronicles/SoN?


Thanks for your help!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [24/09/2021] à 18:30

For what I recall such types of weapons are deemed as "alternative type of attack" in the rulebooks and Compendiums of HoN/S…

So… They can be chosen multiple times but you can use one token only and one issue of "knife +1" or "+2" per attack… Like you do with the icons and istances of the granades for example…


Instead, as you correctly reported, other types of icons and tokens such as the Veteran (Reroll Die/Dice) one can be used multiple times per attack…


You can use them all at once… If you need or want to… It depends from case to case… Last match I played with a friend of mine we were playing one of the Stalingrad campaign last mission and he managed to kill Maria Oktobreskaja in the very first turn !!! Me and him used all the Veteran reroll we had to se if we could save or kill her… Depending on the faction point of view…


He managed to kill her… In the end. So I could not use my T34 tanks at all !!! And I lost…


Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [24/09/2021] à 23:28

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [24/09/2021] à 18:30

For what I recall such types of weapons are deemed as "alternative type of attack" in the rulebooks and Compendiums of HoN/S…

So… They can be chosen multiple times but you can use one token only and one issue of "knife +1" or "+2" per attack… Like you do with the icons and istances of the granades for example…


Instead, as you correctly reported, other types of icons and tokens such as the Veteran (Reroll Die/Dice) one can be used multiple times per attack…


You can use them all at once… If you need or want to… It depends from case to case… Last match I played with a friend of mine we were playing one of the Stalingrad campaign last mission and he managed to kill Maria Oktobreskaja in the very first turn !!! Me and him used all the Veteran reroll we had to se if we could save or kill her… Depending on the faction point of view…


He managed to kill her… In the end. So I could not use my T34 tanks at all !!! And I lost…


Hi Ivan,


Thanks for your help.


My concern is that I think that it's worded as "alternate firing action" – and not exactly "alternative type of attack." I guess the main question is: can any type of dagger stack – either the commando knives, or the hero knives? Does an assault count as an "alternative type of attack" in which only 1 token can be used, or is that only for "alternative firing action" meaning panzerfausts, grenades, APC and HE shells, etc. Just wondering because I think it would be totally broken if Jack Churchill could stack knives.


Here are the rules: "… markers must always be discarded after use, whether the action is successful or not.

You must declare the use of a marker before your action or before the die roll (yours or your opponent's).

Unless the option specifies it is an Alternate firing action, you may use up to 3 identical markers in the same action."


The Knife does *not* show that it's an "Alternative Firing Action." All it says is that it's "restricted to infantry." Furthermore, "Assault" is considered a special ability, not worded exactly as an "alternate firing action." But, the knives are also a "melee weapon" equipment type, and so their use may be limited to one per assault, but I just don't know.


Here are more rules from the customizations page: "Melee Weapons: If a weapon gives the Assault special ability, it replaces the character's weapon if its bonus is higher. Other special abilities add to a character's existing ones.

Some of these weapons can provide markers that restrict their use."


The reason that the above confuses me so much is because Nostradunwich – in a forum thread titled "Assault Ability vs Bonus Clarification – Fuhrer's Fury" – writes: "IMPORTANT NOTE: Levels of Assault do not combine. If a unit has <Assault +1> and something in the game grants them <Assault +2>, that supersedes the <Assault +1> power. The unit will add only +2 to Assault rolls, not +3."


The rules for "Special Abilities" are: "These customisations gift the character with new special abilities in addition to the ones it already has. They are considered to be printed on the character's counter and therefore lost if the unit is Destroyed. For the same reason, they cannot be used during an Alternate firing action."


Does the above mean that melee expert can be ADDED to the preexisting Assault value of a unit, even if it has equal or higher assault value than melee expert itself?


Here is a summary of my questions:

-Can only 1 knife or dagger of ANY type be used in a single assault?

-Is the hero "knife" that shows "+2 Assault" identical to the hero "dagger" that shows "Assault +2"?

-Is there any difference between the "Hero customization" Knife (that suggests it gives a +2 Assault Ability) and the commando recruitment knife (that is worded to give a "bonus")? There is only 1 type of "knife" in terms of the key words in the book. That leads me to believe that the customization knives and the recruitment option/commando knives function exactly the same since they are essentially the same thing.

-Can Mad Jack use the recruitment option (red/black) commando knives despite already having a Scottish broadsword with a higher base Assault value?

-If so, can he use multiples in a single action/stack up to 3 of them in a single assault?

-Can Mad Jack use the "Melee Expert" special ability, or does it only work for units lower than +2 Assault? Or is it an additive bonus?

-Does Melee Expert +2 function as a permanent Fuhrer's Fury? Is it an "ability" or a bonus to preexisting assault values? If so, can you stack multiple Melee Expert's for a larger bonus?


Based on everything, I'm thinking that you CANNOT use Melee Expert on a unit with equal or higher assault value since it works like a permanent Fuhrer's Fury, but that you can *probably* use one dagger max per assault as a bonus (Skorzeny 2 assault ability + 2 bonus vs infantry + 2 assault from dagger = 6 assault total w/ one knife). It really makes no sense to use multiple knives in a single assault anyways, especially if the unit already has a superior melee weapon, like Mad Jack. Plus, the rules under "Melee Weapons" says that the weapon only replaces the preexisting value, meaning that a knife will only bring a +1 assault unit to +2, not +3, which would mean that there is no way (other than Assault Bonus cards) for Mad Jack to increase his Assault beyond his massive +5 Assault, which would be fine. I think the rules are supposed to be interpreted as: "only one WEAPON equipment type (shovel, knife, dagger, grenade) can be used per combat action. Treat assaults like they are alternate firing actions." However, that is not written anywhere, so some confirmation or clarification would be greatly appreciated since I will be running a small group tournament with my brother and some buddies.


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [26/09/2021] à 21:58

I will start with what I apparently have to do as a standard disclaimer:


HoN is a WW2-themed board game. Some decisions in how gear are represented may differ from what anyone considers "realistic" for purposes of game play. As long as such things are logically consistent within the framework of the game, they are what they are. I don't mean to make this sound dismissive, and please feel free to come up with any house rules that you and your opponent agree to use to make the game fit your expectation, but arguments about "realism" are not really relevant.


With that out of the way, let's talk about other things.


I don't know which rulebook you are using, so it is somewhat tough to be specific. I am going to use the HoS rules as my baseline, since they are the most recently published rules that are readily available to people.


From HoS, p.23:

Unless the Gear Option specified that it is an Alternate Firing Action, you may use up to 3 identical marker on the same action.


So, you may not throw 3 grenades, but you can use 3 Ammo on one shot. In fact, you can use 3 Ammo to boost the Infantry Combat Value of a Grenade attack. Those of you looking for a simulator will be cringing right now, but that is how this game works.


From HoS Battle Pack 1, p.2:

If a weapon grants the Assault special ability, it replaces the character's usual weapon if the option's bonus is higher.


That is the same as every other instance of such things. There is a reason the icon for "Assault +1 Special Ability" and the Knife's "+2 Assault" icon do not look the same. The former is a "level" of Assault, and if you unit gains it for a turn it replaces any such ability your unit previously had. The latter case is a cumulative bonus to an Assault roll.


The Knife Gear Option is not an Alternate Firing Action. Thus, you can use 3 Knife tokens to add +6 to an Assault action. Once those 3 are gone, you cannot boost any other Assault actions. it is restricted to 3 "charges" per option purchased.


If the Knife customization is written in the form +2<assault icon>, then it is a bonus to an assault roll (like the Knife gear options), and may be combined with other such bonuses. If it is written <assault icon>+2, then it provides the special ability at the level of +2.


Hopefully that answers your questions?


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [26/09/2021] à 22:14

Quote from ASEF on [24/09/2021] à 01:28

I have another quick question: The rules for Life Point are from "the weird side of Normandie" section of the rulebook. However, Life Point matches with standard HoN heroes with it's white trim, and the rules work seamlessly with HoN. Is Life Point considered to be "tournament legal" for HoN games, or are they only intended to be used with Guardians Chronicles/SoN?


That entirely depends on the particular tournament rules, and if there is not a restriction such as "Core box only" then I would recommend you confirm with the tournament organizers ahead of time.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [26/09/2021] à 22:53

Quote from ASEF on [24/09/2021] à 23:28

The Knife does *not* show that it's an "Alternative Firing Action." All it says is that it's "restricted to infantry." Furthermore, "Assault" is considered a special ability, not worded exactly as an "alternate firing action." But, the knives are also a "melee weapon" equipment type, and so their use may be limited to one per assault, but I just don't know.


If such a rule existed, it would be in the rulebook.


The reason that the above confuses me so much is because Nostradunwich – in a forum thread titled "Assault Ability vs Bonus Clarification – Fuhrer's Fury" – writes: "IMPORTANT NOTE: Levels of Assault do not combine. If a unit has <Assault +1> and something in the game grants them <Assault +2>, that supersedes the <Assault +1> power. The unit will add only +2 to Assault rolls, not +3."


The key is (as stated in my above post) whether it is +X<assault icon> or <assault icon>+X


-Is there any difference between the "Hero customization" Knife (that suggests it gives a +2 Assault Ability) and the commando recruitment knife (that is worded to give a "bonus")? There is only 1 type of "knife" in terms of the key words in the book. That leads me to believe that the customization knives and the recruitment option/commando knives function exactly the same since they are essentially the same thing.


This is an interesting point I had not considered previously. Technically a Customization and a Knife Gear Option are arguably not "identical" (different types of options), although they perform an identical function. I was thinking you were limited to the "max 3 tokens" rule, and I think your point about the keyword being the same backs that up.


Based on everything, I'm thinking that you CANNOT use Melee Expert on a unit with equal or higher assault value since it works like a permanent Fuhrer's Fury


Correct.


…but that you can *probably* use one dagger max per assault as a bonus (Skorzeny 2 assault ability + 2 bonus vs infantry + 2 assault from dagger = 6 assault total w/ one knife). It really makes no sense to use multiple knives in a single assault anyways, especially if the unit already has a superior melee weapon, like Mad Jack.


Sorry, but that is incorrect. You are not limited to 1 token max. Your point about value of using the icons is valid, but that is not a rules issue 🙂


…the rules under "Melee Weapons" says that the weapon only replaces the preexisting value, meaning that a knife will only bring a +1 assault unit to +2, not +3, which would mean that there is no way (other than Assault Bonus cards) for Mad Jack to increase his Assault beyond his massive +5 Assault, which would be fine. I think the rules are supposed to be interpreted as: "only one WEAPON equipment type (shovel, knife, dagger, grenade) can be used per combat action. Treat assaults like they are alternate firing actions." However, that is not written anywhere, so some confirmation or clarification would be greatly appreciated since I will be running a small group tournament with my brother and some buddies.


It takes a bit of work to interpret this one, it is an unfortunate missed opportunity in the rules. It is used consistently, but that is not obvious to a new player.


In the first version of HoN, a bonus to an Assault roll was written as +2<assault icon>. In the V2 materials (HoS, HoNBRO), such "roll bonuses" have a green font, rather than the white font used by the abilities. A Knife has always been identified in either style as a "bonus to a roll" rather than a Special Ability at a +2 level. It is always a bonus. That is why the Gear Option is described that way in the Compendium.


It is unfortunately less clear in the Customization section, but the format of the marker is consistent — +2<assault> — and is also a bonus to an Assault roll.


So yes, Mad Jack can take a Knife to add +2 to his Assault ability, but it is a one-shot bonus, after which the marker is used.


Hopefully that helps with your rules interpretation, since you have a tournament you are putting together?


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 01:33

Hi Nostradunwhich,


Thank you so much for your help with my questions, and yes, I'm hosting a small tournament with my brother and 3 friends. We may play some infantry-only scenarios, and so these questions become especially pertinent for those battles.


I still have a few questions I'm hoping you can help me with.


– The "Dagger" Customization found in the SS Panzer Division shows the dagger coming first – so "Assault +2" rather than the Knife option, which has the +2 *in front* of the dagger. Are they supposed to be different? I honestly thought that the only difference was stylistic, and they were essentially the same thing (but for the Germans instead of the Allies – essentially their own stylized knife with the same exact function and value – after all they cost the same and take up the same slot). If they are different, then it would be a point-for-point ripoff for the option that only gives the ability and not the bonus. Why take the ability instead of the bonus for the same cost – especially when a unit already has assault bonus? So, in the v2 rules, does the Dagger provide the same "bonus" as the knife, despite the different ordering of the assault icon and the value? I really think they should be the same, and I think 99.9% of players probably assume they are the same anyways. The way I interpret the Dagger/Knife is that they are both bonuses if the hero has assault, or abilities for those without assault. That is both fair for the points/factions and intuitive for players to wrap their heads around. After all, there is no differentiation between "+2 Assault" and "Assault +2" in the rules – it is unwritten. We know about Fuhrer's Fury because it gets its own specific description, but what about the Dagger vs the Knife? It would be unfair for the Dagger to only be an ability, when the Knife serves as BOTH an ability AND a bonus (as per the rules under the "melee weapons" section for customizations). Why should the Germans (who are the only ones with the "Dagger") get a lesser option than the Allied Knife? Moreover, the "SS Dagger" from the Fury War Stories shows that it provides a green "bonus" to assault. I think they are the same, especially in light of the War Stories SS Dagger. I think the SS Dagger, the Dagger, the Hero Knives and the commando/para/fallschirm daggers can all be considered "identical" and all grouped under the "Knife" keyword in the glossary. Is that fair?


– If the Dagger and Knife are the same, can they be used interchangeably or can you use a dagger and 2 knife tokens together for a +6 bonus to assault? After all, there is no keyword for "Dagger" in the compendium, and so I think it is assumed to be the identical German equivalent of the Knife. Under the "Melee Weapons" section, images of the Dagger and the Knife are side-by-side, but the Compendium does not contain any Dagger rules or keyword separate from the Knife. I don't think that they are supposed to be any different, and I certainly think that they should not be any different. If the Dagger is treated only as an ability like a temporary Fuhrer's Fury, it that rule would render the dagger useless for Heinrich von Kamptz, and basically useless for the other German heroes – why not just get the Knife for the same cost and receive the full +2 bonus for the 5 points instead of the +1 Assault Dagger (since they have +1 Assault already)?


– How many total knives can Mad Jack use in a single assault? Can he use all 3 recruitment option/commando knives AND 3 customization knives in the same assault, giving him a game-breaking 17 Assault value? I really don't think such a value should be attainable in the HoN system. It takes away the possibility of losing the assault – and create situations where there is no reason to ever challenge Mad Jack in assault. I'm hoping it's not possible. Even for Mad Jack to use 3 commando knives would give him a +11 Bonus to assault, which in my opinion is ridiculous to begin with. The reason that I ask is because – as you highlighted – someone could make the case that the commando knives and the hero knives are different, which makes me wonder if they they be used together (so x3 identical commando knives + x3 hero knives). Or, does the 3-marker maximum apply to knives of different type? Does "identical" in this case mean the identical same *value and function* or does identical mean same appearance of the markers so that Daggers and Knives can be used together?


Sorry for so many questions, but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this.


Thanks again!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 01:37

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:14


Quote from ASEF on [24/09/2021] à 01:28

I have another quick question: The rules for Life Point are from "the weird side of Normandie" section of the rulebook. However, Life Point matches with standard HoN heroes with it's white trim, and the rules work seamlessly with HoN. Is Life Point considered to be "tournament legal" for HoN games, or are they only intended to be used with Guardians Chronicles/SoN?


That entirely depends on the particular tournament rules, and if there is not a restriction such as "Core box only" then I would recommend you confirm with the tournament organizers ahead of time.



So in a totally-open HoN tournament, the Life Point special should be legal? In this case, I am the tournament organizer (lol my 5-man tournament with friends and my bro). So, should it reasonably be legal if the parameters are "only HoN platoons and Heroes"? So no fictitious Chronicles or Shadows platoons or heroes, but any option that fits with HoN is legal. Does that sound fair to you? That means no Shadows Heinrich von Kamptz, but HoN von Kamptz is legal, and he can get Life Point since it totally fits.


Any feedback is welcome!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 03:35

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 21:58


From HoS, p.23:

Unless the Gear Option specified that it is an Alternate Firing Action, you may use up to 3 identical marker on the same action.


So, you may not throw 3 grenades, but you can use 3 Ammo on one shot. In fact, you can use 3 Ammo to boost the Infantry Combat Value of a Grenade attack. Those of you looking for a simulator will be cringing right now, but that is how this game works.



Does that work if the unit does not have LoS with the target? Say I throw a grenade from behind a hedgerow that totally blocks LoS: can you still use 3 ammo – even though the unit cannot see and shoot the enemy – to boost the hit chance to +5 for the grenade against infantry?


What about if the grenade hits multiple enemy squads: since each shot is resolved separately, does that mean that ALL squads within the grenade blast template are affected by the ammo? Or is it the case that only one of the units affected by the grenade gets hit with the superboosted +5 anti-infantry grenade? If the latter is the case, who chooses which unit is affected by the ammo-grenade combo? If all units affected by the grenade are also affected by the ammo, that is super powerful indeed.


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 03:49

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 03:35

Does that work if the unit does not have LoS with the target? Say I throw a grenade from behind a hedgerow that totally blocks LoS: can you still use 3 ammo – even though the unit cannot see and shoot the enemy – to boost the hit chance to +5 for the grenade against infantry?


What do the rules for Ammo say?


Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 03:35

What about if the grenade hits multiple enemy squads: since each shot is resolved separately, does that mean that ALL squads within the grenade blast template are affected by the ammo? Or is it the case that only one of the units affected by the grenade gets hit with the superboosted +5 anti-infantry grenade? If the latter is the case, who chooses which unit is affected by the ammo-grenade combo? If all units affected by the grenade are also affected by the ammo, that is super powerful indeed.


What do the rules for grenades say about hitting more than one target?


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 04:01

"Wow" is all I have to say. Allowing ammo to boost grenades is one of the most esoteric, unwritten tactics that I have ever encountered in a board game – or any game for that matter. There should be a note in the rules so that more people are aware of this. At first it did really seem sort of like an exploit, but I suppose the Ammo could represent the throwing of multiple grenades, for example.


But I do still have some other questions in my above posts concerning the hero knives and the dagger and if they are the same, if you could help me with those, I would really appreciate it. Please see my more detailed posts above if you are able to help me with my final questions. After those are cleared up, I think I will have grasped the rules sufficiently in order to run my group games.


Thanks again,


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 19:11

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:53


Quote from ASEF on [24/09/2021] à 23:28

-Is there any difference between the "Hero customization" Knife (that suggests it gives a +2 Assault Ability) and the commando recruitment knife (that is worded to give a "bonus")? There is only 1 type of "knife" in terms of the key words in the book. That leads me to believe that the customization knives and the recruitment option/commando knives function exactly the same since they are essentially the same thing.


This is an interesting point I had not considered previously. Technically a Customization and a Knife Gear Option are arguably not "identical" (different types of options), although they perform an identical function. I was thinking you were limited to the "max 3 tokens" rule, and I think your point about the keyword being the same backs that up.


I got confirmation from Clem — all items with the same keyword, so only a total of 3 Knife tokens of any kind for any one particular Assault.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 19:15

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 01:33

– The "Dagger" Customization found in the SS Panzer Division shows the dagger coming first – so "Assault +2" rather than the Knife option, which has the +2 *in front* of the dagger. Are they supposed to be different?


Yes.


If they are different, then it would be a point-for-point ripoff for the option that only gives the ability and not the bonus. Why take the ability instead of the bonus for the same cost


Giving a unit the Assault ability allows them to roll 2 dice instead of 1 and keep the best. It also allows a unit to initiate an assault in the first place. A unit that gains only a +2 bonus to an Assault roll without the Assault ability may only use the item as the defender.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 19:16

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [27/09/2021] à 19:11


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:53


Quote from ASEF on [24/09/2021] à 23:28

-Is there any difference between the "Hero customization" Knife (that suggests it gives a +2 Assault Ability) and the commando recruitment knife (that is worded to give a "bonus")? There is only 1 type of "knife" in terms of the key words in the book. That leads me to believe that the customization knives and the recruitment option/commando knives function exactly the same since they are essentially the same thing.


This is an interesting point I had not considered previously. Technically a Customization and a Knife Gear Option are arguably not "identical" (different types of options), although they perform an identical function. I was thinking you were limited to the "max 3 tokens" rule, and I think your point about the keyword being the same backs that up.


I got confirmation from Clem — all items with the same keyword, so only a total of 3 Knife tokens of any kind for any one particular Assault.



Thanks so much for the confirmation.


How about hero dagger vs hero knife? No keyword for Dagger, so I assume they are to be treated as "identical." Please see my above posts.


It's great that you can confirm with the devs!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 19:30

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 19:16

How about hero dagger vs hero knife? No keyword for Dagger, so I assume they are to be treated as "identical." Please see my above posts.


I already answered this one.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [27/09/2021] à 19:51

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [27/09/2021] à 19:15


Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 01:33

– The "Dagger" Customization found in the SS Panzer Division shows the dagger coming first – so "Assault +2" rather than the Knife option, which has the +2 *in front* of the dagger. Are they supposed to be different?


Yes.


If they are different, then it would be a point-for-point ripoff for the option that only gives the ability and not the bonus. Why take the ability instead of the bonus for the same cost


Giving a unit the Assault ability allows them to roll 2 dice instead of 1 and keep the best. It also allows a unit to initiate an assault in the first place. A unit that gains only a +2 bonus to an Assault roll without the Assault ability may only use the item as the defender.



Sure, but the issue is that almost all of the units that you would use the dagger for already have the assault ability, and usually already have +1 base assault value (meaning you only get +1 Assault attacking or defending, while the Knife will give most of the heroes the full +2 for both attacking and defending). Plus, "Melee Expert" or "Melee Master" would render the Dagger literally useless if it only *replaces* a lower value, and doesn't add to it. In almost every instance, the Dagger is a point-per-point inferior option considering that assault +1 is common amongst the heroes, and it renders other valuable options like Melee Expert incompatible, and Assault Level +1 inefficient (since the dagger only bumps that up by 1). It would be absolutely impossible to get "Melee Expert" and a Dagger. Plus, when you can use 1 slot instead of 2 – for the same 15 points – to get "Melee Master" for the same +3 effect, with the added assault value being *permanent,* it doesn't require the second customization slot (which saves you points as well).


Moreover, the "SS Dagger" from the Fury War Stories shows that it provides a green "bonus" to assault, just like the Knife, but in the old v1 Dagger order of "Assault +2." I think the "SS Dagger" (which is the same as the Knife) and the "Dagger" are supposed to be the same, especially in light of the War Stories SS Dagger/new knife order of "Assault +2 [green]." I think the SS Dagger, the Dagger, the Hero Knives and the commando/para/fallschirm daggers can all be considered "identical" and all grouped under the "Knife" keyword. There is no keyword for "Dagger" and no particular rules for them in the Compendium, which is supposed to be the comprehensive rulebook including all expansion items. For that reason, it is easy to assume that all forms of "Dagger" and different types of "Knife" are all the same. Why would there be a difference between the "SS Dagger" and the "Dagger" anyways, when the SS Dagger is the same as the Knife? Does that not add undue complexity to the game, especially considered that these differences are unwritten? People probably already assume they are the same and treat them like German Knives to begin with.


This leads me to another question: If you use the "Dagger" on a unit *without* assault, could you add 2 Knife markers to boost the assault value to a total of +6 Assault? If assault is not classified as an alternate firing action, it is limited to the identical 3-marker cap. But, as you suggest, Daggers and Knives are different, and therefore theoretically cannot be used together. If the Dagger was considered to be "identical" to the Knife (keep in mind the absence of the keyword for Dagger) it would allow those options to be used together. There is no written rule saying that "Assault +2" is any different to +2 Assault," and with the new knives+SS Dagger the bonus is written as "Assault +2" with green numbering (but, again, with the old Dagger "Assault +2" order) Does that not suggest that they are to be treated as the same thing? Will the devs in the next iteration of the rules add both the "Dagger" and "SS Dagger" to the keywords? That would seem to be overly complex and I think a good solution is to treat all daggers/knives as knives, which is what they literarily are and makes more sense for players. That would clear up the inconsistency in the compendium section on "melee weapons granting the assault ability," which based on your assessment would only mean one weapon – the dagger – that gives the ability itself, yet the rule also refers to the hero Knife as giving the ability and not a bonus. This way, all "knives" – including recruitment knives – are treated the same and this is a non-problem. Based on how you're explaining it to me, we will have an "SS Dagger" that is the same as the "Knife" but is not the same as the "Dagger," and the "Dagger" has the same "Assault +2" order as the new Knives, but just without the green colouring. Again, since there is no keyword or rules description for the dagger, it suggests that they are identical to the knives. Again, nowhere is it written that they are different.


A dagger is a type of fighting knife. Just make them all identical and it solves the inconsistencies within the Compendium (differing descriptions of what hero "melee weapons" and recruitment melee weapons can do) and between the old & the new knives. The fact that they are treated differently is what is causing a conceptual problem. My suggestion: *all types of daggers, knives and shovels [melee weapons] may provide a bonus to assault OR the corresponding assault level of the weapon for those without any assault ability. All knives and daggers are considered identical.* That would clean things up nicely and add a level of consistency and fairness across the different options, since as of now they seem different in name and imagery only. Currently, the Compendium states that melee weapons "grant the assault ability" – so what is it? A Bonus, or the ability? Why not both to solve this issue in light of no written rules or keywords? Fuhrer's Fury is separate, since it gets its own rules. Why should Mad Jack get to use his +5 assault and 3 knives, and some other poor hero can't even use "Melee Expert" and the dagger together (which is more expensive)? Just as the compendium has been amended in a number of places, I think this is something that could use a touch-up. Clearly, the Dagger found in the SS Panzer Division is intended to be identical to the "SS Dagger" found in the Fury War Story, which is treated exactly the same as the Knives. As such, it only makes sense for the Dagger to be identical to the SS Dagger as well. Perhaps you can pass this along to the devs for their consideration?


Sorry for the seemingly unending questions.


Thanks so much for the assistance!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 17:40

SS Dagger is its own thing, as you pointed out there is no common keyword between Dagger and SS Dagger. Yes, the font is green so it is a bonus. Not a surprise since all the SS troops already have Assault.


The customization Dagger is only for Heroes. I would recommend you buy it only for Heroes without Assault. If you would rather buy a different option then feel free to do so.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 17:53

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 19:51

This leads me to another question: If you use the "Dagger" on a unit *without* assault, could you add 2 Knife markers to boost the assault value to a total of +6 Assault?


Yes. We covered this.


If the Dagger was considered to be "identical" to the Knife (keep in mind the absence of the keyword for Dagger) it would allow those options to be used together.


Sorry, but you are making irrelevant assumptions. They have different names because they are different items.


All Knives are consistent — +2 bonus to Assault.

The Dagger customization provides a Hero with Assault +2 Special Ability (once, since it only has 1 token)

The SS Dagger is for the SS unit in Fury and provides 3 bonus tokens.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:20

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:53


Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 19:51

This leads me to another question: If you use the "Dagger" on a unit *without* assault, could you add 2 Knife markers to boost the assault value to a total of +6 Assault?


Yes. We covered this.


If the Dagger was considered to be "identical" to the Knife (keep in mind the absence of the keyword for Dagger) it would allow those options to be used together.


Sorry, but you are making irrelevant assumptions. They have different names because they are different items.


All Knives are consistent — +2 bonus to Assault.

The Dagger customization provides a Hero with Assault +2 Special Ability (once, since it only has 1 token)

The SS Dagger is for the SS unit in Fury and provides 3 bonus tokens.


1) We did not cover this. Since you claim the Dagger and the Knives are different, that would mean that the *dagger could not be used together with the knife, since they are NOT identical and assault is NOT an alternate firing action.* Based on what you're saying, we could only use either the Dagger OR the Knives if they really are supposed to be different (which they shouldn't be imho).


2) I'm not making any assumptions here. The Fury War Story shows that SS Daggers are to be treated exactly like knives, with the Green +2 bonus to assault. But having "SS Daggers" different to the old "Dagger" (from the SS Panzer Division, looks like an "SS Dagger" to me) seems – at least to me – both illogical and counterintuitive for players, especially in light of no keyword or rules for Daggers/SS Daggers to begin with. So now, we have the old SS Panzer Div. "Dagger," which is different to the new "SS Dagger" which is apparently treated the exact same as the Knives. What kind of confusing, unwritten difference is that? Is the old "Dagger" from the SS Pz. Div. not an SS Dagger as well – having come from the SS Panzer Division? The fact that there is no keyword, written rules or anything of the sort makes this a ridiculous problem that could be easily addressed. That the Dagger is any different to the knives or the SS Dagger seems to be nothing more than unwritten, counterintuitive minutiae that should be avoided by the HoN rules. The game is supposed to be easy to follow and learn, and this does not lend itself to that principle.


3) Sorry, you are incorrect that the Fury SS Daggers come with 3 tokens. As far as I can see (from the Fury punchboard link that you yourself provided us) the "SS Dagger" option comes with only ONE marker, just like the old Dagger from the SS-Pz-Div. Unless DPG has changed the punchboards since that image update, only 1 SS Dagger marker is available.


4) Sorry, you are incorrect that the old Dagger "is only for heroes." The 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzergrenadiere from the Fury War Story has the white-trimmed hero customization slot, meaning that the old Dagger could be used for that platoon.


Furthermore, the rules for knives are ambiguous in the Compendium as I have pointed out. In the compendium, it says that "If a weapon gives the Assault special ability, it replaces the character's weapon if its bonus is higher. Other special abilities add to a character's existing ones." The commando recruitment Knives, on the other hand, are written to give a BONUS. Again, since Clem confirmed that they are the same (since there is only one keyword for "knife") why not just equalize all Daggers so that they all do the same thing, or just simply consider them all to be "Knives"? That makes the game far more intuitive for players and would be fair for the points.


If I were to go to my friends and try to make the case that the Dagger is any different to the Knife, they would probably challenge me on it, since there is no keyword or rules for the Dagger and it doesn't make logical sense as to why that should be the case. This would be especially true if I tried to tell them that the SS-Pz-Div "Dagger" is different to the "SS Dagger." The new knives/SS Dagger have THE SAME order of "Assault +2" as the old dagger, just with the new green numbering. That no rules or keywords exist for the Dagger options should be a strong reason to consider them both as the same thing. My previous suggestion (that melee weapons provide the assault ability for units without assault OR the full bonus if they already have an assault value) would correct the inconsistencies in the Compendium regarding the different Hero and recruitment knives. An easier solution is to treat both types of daggers as "knives" so that both types of Dagger are the same, and can always be used. Since Clem has officially equalized the hero and recruitment knives, why not just equalize the different daggers to be functionally identical? As per the Compendium inconsistency that "melee weapons" – including the Knife – give the assault ability AND they give a bonus according to the rules for the "Knife," that same standard should be applied to the different types of daggers. The unwritten rule that the old "+2 Assault" is any different to "Assault +2" is ridiculous – it's made even more ridiculous by the fact that the new knives/SS Daggers *share the same Assault +2 order as the old Dagger.* This is truly unnecessary minutiae that should be done away with, at least in my own opinion.


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:24

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:40

SS Dagger is its own thing, as you pointed out there is no common keyword between Dagger and SS Dagger. Yes, the font is green so it is a bonus. Not a surprise since all the SS troops already have Assault.


The customization Dagger is only for Heroes. I would recommend you buy it only for Heroes without Assault. If you would rather buy a different option then feel free to do so.


The ONLY difference between the old Dagger and the SS Dagger is the green numbering. Players will easily confuse them to be the same thing anyways, especially since the "Assault +2" order remains the same, and the old Knives *don't* have any green numbering.


ASEF

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