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Dagger vs. Knife
Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:54

Quote from ASEF on [28/09/2021] à 19:20


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:53


Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 19:51

This leads me to another question: If you use the "Dagger" on a unit *without* assault, could you add 2 Knife markers to boost the assault value to a total of +6 Assault?


Yes. We covered this.


1) We did not cover this.


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [27/09/2021] à 19:15


Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 01:33

– The "Dagger" Customization found in the SS Panzer Division shows the dagger coming first – so "Assault +2" rather than the Knife option, which has the +2 *in front* of the dagger. Are they supposed to be different?


Yes.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 20:04

Quote from ASEF on [28/09/2021] à 19:24


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:40

SS Dagger is its own thing, as you pointed out there is no keyword for Dagger. Yes, the font is green so it is a bonus. Not a surprise since all the SS troops already have Assault.


The customization Dagger is only for Heroes. I would recommend you buy it only for Heroes without Assault. If you would rather buy a different option then feel free to do so.


The ONLY difference between the old Dagger and the SS Dagger is the green numbering. Players will easily confuse them to be the same thing anyways, especially since the "Assault +2" order remains the same, and the old Knives *don't* have any green numbering.


That is not correct. The "SS Dagger" is named "SS Dagger". The "Dagger" is named "Dagger".


I already explained the difference between V1 modifiers and V2 modifiers. Why are you ignoring that to try and draw an equivalence between the two options?


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:53

In the first version of HoN, a bonus to an Assault roll was written as +2<assault icon>. In the V2 materials (HoS, HoNBRO), such "roll bonuses" have a green font, rather than the white font used by the abilities.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 20:50

Quote from ASEF on [28/09/2021] à 19:20

2) I'm not making any assumptions here.


But having "SS Daggers" different to the old "Dagger" (from the SS Panzer Division, looks like an "SS Dagger" to me)


Is the old "Dagger" from the SS Pz. Div. not an SS Dagger as well – having come from the SS Panzer Division?


Those look like assumptions to me, along with your attempt to draw an equivalence because "a dagger is a kind of knife". You are losing sight of the actual game pieces in favor of the physical objects they "represent", that is why you are finding this confusing.


I will remind you of my original disclaimer when I joined this thread:

HoN is a WW2-themed board game. Some decisions in how gear are represented may differ from what anyone considers "realistic" for purposes of game play. As long as such things are logically consistent within the framework of the game, they are what they are. I don't mean to make this sound dismissive, and please feel free to come up with any house rules that you and your opponent agree to use to make the game fit your expectation, but arguments about "realism" are not really relevant.


All game pieces which are various options named "Knife" are the same named option. They all have the same modifier (+2 to Assault rolls) although some are in V1 format (+2 Assault) and some are in V2 format (Assault +2). DPG has stated that all of them are equivalent for purposes of the rule limiting the number of the same token you can apply to a single attack.


The game option "SS Dagger" is not the same as "Dagger". In the same way the game unit "Panzer I" does not have exactly the same combat values and abilities as a "Panzer IV" because they both have the word "Panzer" in them. They are named differently precisely to differentiate them.


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Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [28/09/2021] à 22:56

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 20:04

I already explained the difference between V1 modifiers and V2 modifiers. Why are you ignoring that to try and draw an equivalence between the two options?


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:53

In the first version of HoN, a bonus to an Assault roll was written as +2<assault icon>. In the V2 materials (HoS, HoNBRO), such "roll bonuses" have a green font, rather than the white font used by the abilities.



I'm not ignoring anything. If you read my posts in full, you would know that I understand how the Dagger works, but I fundamentally disagree that there should be a difference. My reasons are threefold:


1) Balance:


-Dagger cannot be used by unit with +2 Assault, like von Kamptz.

-Dagger cannot be used by ANYONE if you use Fuhrer's Fury, and so has no value when you use that card (when I think they should be able to be used together to grant a +4 Assault for a single unit, especially when you can use knives with Fuhrer's Fury).

-Dagger costs the same as Knife, yet in almost every instance is plainly inferior. Why?

A) Because a unit using the Knife ALWAYS gets the Knife's full +2 bonus REGARDLESS of anything else, whereas the utility of the Dagger is extremely limited or its use is inefficient. Fuhrer's Fury, Melee Expert and Melee Master all render the Dagger utterly useless/incompatible, whereas the Knife can be used (and with full benefit) – even with Fuhrer's Fury and other options.

B) if a unit has +1 Assault (like most heroes that can use the Dagger) the Dagger is outright inferior to the Knife, since it will only grant +1 to assault, bringing a +1 Assault hero to +2 FOR THE SAME COST as the Knife, which always imparts its full +2 bonus. It is plainly inefficient in almost every circumstance that it can actually be used. There is almost never a reason to bring a Dagger instead of a Knife, and if you want to upgrade someone like Ludwig or Julian Krause with melee Expert, the Dagger becomes literally useless.

-The Dagger CANNOT be used with the Knives, since as of now they are considered different to one another.

-Knives can be used together, but Daggers cannot be used together.

– The Dagger was clearly intended for Julian Krause (and it seems like it was intended for almost nobody else since it is inefficient or useless in almost every other instance, with the exception of the Kelly's Heroes/BR1 Ludwig w/ no assault ability and an upgrade slot). Again, adding Melee Expert to either of them renders the dagger incompatible. This shouldn't be the case when the knives are compatible and cost the same.

-The solution to such a balance problem shouldn't be "use the [other] better option." It should be corrected so that knives and daggers are equal options for the points and utility. This appears to be a fundamental disagreement between us, just like we fundamentally disagreed about the fairness of the Training Cards being shuffled into the main deck. And that's fine by me, I agree to disagree about some issues and that's when house rules come into play. Nonetheless, the Dagger remains useless in a number of instances, when the knives, the SS Dagger and all other melee weapons can be used, and I personally don't think that it's right.


2) Rules' Interpretation:


-SS Dagger is different to Dagger in name and colour of numberings only. It has the exact same "Assault +2" sequence, the only difference (besides the name) is the green numbering.

-There is no written rule in any of the rulebooks that says there is a difference between "Assault +2" and "+2 Assault." More importantly, there is no keyword or rules for either of the Daggers.

-There is a contradiction in the Compendium that states that melee weapons provide an "assault ability" in the hero customization section, when in the Recruitment Option description (where the rules for the Knife are) it says that the Knife provides a bonus. Quote from Compendium: "If a weapon gives the Assault special ability, it replaces the character's weapon if its bonus is higher." Underneath that text are images of both the Knife and the Dagger, side-by-side, without any clarification if there is a difference between them. This ambiguity lends itself to various interpretations, since again, there are no rules/keywords for the Dagger(s) at all.

-The Dagger – as of now – is the *only* weapon that grants the assault ability, and not a bonus. The Shovels, like the Knife, are described as providing a bonus, just like the Oar also provides a bonus. The old Dagger seems like an odd, unnecessary exception to the rest of the melee weapon options.


3) Common Sense


-A Knife is a Dagger, and an SS Dagger is a Dagger. A "Dagger" from the SS Panzer Division is easily thought of as an "SS Dagger" since it is *quite literally* an SS Dagger, from an SS expansion pack. Trying to differentiate Dagger and SS Dagger in such a way is confusing and, again, counterintuitive for players – especially when no written rules for either exist and when both the Daggers come as part of SS packs. Moreover, such a distinction between Daggers is not really needed, at least in my personal opinion. It complicates things unnecessarily.

-Since a Dagger is a type of fighting Knife, it would be logical to assume they are the same (the Dagger being a German version of the Knife). This is especially true when you remember that the "SS Dagger" is identical in function to the knives (+2 Assault bonus). Why would the Dagger be any different to the SS Dagger? It is very easy to misinterpret the unwritten rule about assault levels+bonuses and the order of the knife and the numbers/colour of the numbers. It's not about "realism" (that they are both daggers and so they should function the same – this doesn't matter so much). It's more about how many players could unknowingly interpret them as being the same with the absence of specific rules for the old dagger (especially when using pieces from the old and new expansions together).


Thanks for all your help, Nostradunwhich, although I think we may have reached a fundamental disagreement about the balance, which is totally fine and what house rules are for. I'm just trying to make a suggestion – if for nothing else than for the sake of house rules – to treat the old Dagger just like the SS Dagger, both types of Knives, and all other "melee weapons" (incl. Oar and Shovel) for the sake of consistency. That way, the Dagger always remains useful, like the Knife. I just think it's more fair and intuitive anyways – keeping track of the difference between the Dagger and all of the other melee weapons with their bonus seems like something that can be easily forgotten when playing. Even though such a change would make the Dagger less useful for heroes without any assault ability (since you only roll 1 die), it would at least always provide its full +2 Bonus, and can be used in conjunction with Fuhrer's Fury, Melee Expert or Melee Master – just like the other melee weapons. That way, it could also be used together with the new War Story SS Dagger as well. Another suggestion is that all melee weapons give *either* the assault ability (if the unit has no assault) or the full bonus (for those with an assault value). That way, they can always be used and are compatible with other options + Fuhrer's Fury, just like the Knives & SS Dagger. Again, I completely understand the difference between the Knife and Dagger as you describe it, I just don't think they should be different for a number of reasons, mostly related to balance and utility. No further assistance is needed. Please feel free to pass the idea along to the devs for their consideration if you so choose. I have everything I need to host my small tournament now and look forward to playing some HoN, rather than writing about it!


Thanks again,

Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Dagger & Commando Knives Posted on [29/09/2021] à 21:42

Most of your arguments are straw man arguments.


Giving a Dagger to a unit that already has that level of Assault is not the purpose of the Dagger. It is to give a unit that does not have Assault the ability to initiate an assault and also roll two dice. Rolling two dice gives a unit (on average) +1 on their result as well.


A unit without the Assault ability can only use a Knife defensively, and will get (on average) a result 1 lower than a unit rolling two dice with the same bonus. Thus it is less effective than your evaluation.


But if you do not see the value of the Dagger, then don't take it. I am not going to keep going back and forth over this. It is not going to magically change its function.


-Knives can be used together, but Daggers cannot be used together.


That is an utterly irrelevant point, since they in no way perform the same function. I simply do not accept that as a premise at all.


-SS Dagger is different to Dagger in name and colour of numberings only.


Your refusal to accept how bonuses to rolls vs. special abilities work in V2 products renders any continuation of this discussion pointless. I recommend you stick only with V1 products, because you will be increasingly confounded by V2 formatting going forward.


I have explained the various differences in the notation between V1 and V2. This is not a guess on my part, this comes from years of discussion with the designers of the game.


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Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [29/09/2021] à 23:27

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [29/09/2021] à 21:42

Most of your arguments are straw man arguments.


Giving a Dagger to a unit that already has that level of Assault is not the purpose of the Dagger. It is to give a unit that does not have Assault the ability to initiate an assault and also roll two dice. Rolling two dice gives a unit (on average) +1 on their result as well.


A unit without the Assault ability can only use a Knife defensively, and will get (on average) a result 1 lower than a unit rolling two dice with the same bonus. Thus it is less effective than your evaluation.


But if you do not see the value of the Dagger, then don't take it. I am not going to keep going back and forth over this. It is not going to magically change its function.


-Knives can be used together, but Daggers cannot be used together.


That is an utterly irrelevant point, since they in no way perform the same function. I simply do not accept that as a premise at all.


-SS Dagger is different to Dagger in name and colour of numberings only.


Your refusal to accept how bonuses to rolls vs. special abilities work in V2 products renders any continuation of this discussion pointless. I recommend you stick only with V1 products, because you will be increasingly confounded by V2 formatting going forward.


I have explained the various differences in the notation between V1 and V2. This is not a guess on my part, this comes from years of discussion with the designers of the game.



Nostradunwhich, my points regarding the balance are a comparison between the utility of the Knife and the Dagger. We both know that most of the units that can benefit from such weapons already have Assault +1, and therefore the Dagger is so circumstantial that it's almost never the better option. Again, I understand the difference, I'm suggesting as a house rule for them to be treated the same way, especially in light of no specific rules or keywords for the Dagger, so that it could be used efficiently for most heroes (von Krok, von Kamptz, Siegfried and others). The Dagger is an odd exception to all the other "melee weapons" that are available in HoN. If one was to consider the Dagger as a bonus like all the other melee weapons, it would just be more consistent and I think would be be more useful for a greater number of heroes. It could then be used in conjunction with Fuhrer's Fury, as well as Melee Expert and Melee Master (and would always impart a full +2 bonus like the Knife). As you can hopefully see, I'm offering an alternative to the official rule for anyone interested, not challenging the rule itself.


This is merely a house rule suggestion from the player perspective. None of my points are irrelevant in the absence of written rules or keywords for the Dagger. From the consumer perspective, it's already an extra step for us to come to the forums to get "clarifications" about ambiguous or changing rules. Perhaps a notation and official description for the "Dagger" should be added to the Compendium Clarifications thread (or another relevant thread) for easy reference. I think many players already consider the Dagger as a bonus by mistake, not realizing the difference while quickly glancing at the options (since the closest thing in the keywords section to the Dagger is the "Knife" which gives a bonus – even though the former gives the ability and the latter only gives a bonus). There's no reason to get defensive. I'm not challenging your years of experience with the game at all. You confirmed that the dagger is different than the knife, which is very helpful. I'm just discussing why the Dagger is in most cases the less efficient, very circumstantial option. I'm offering my input as a player who loves the game, so that the Dagger marker can perhaps get more use for other heroes. Maybe other players will start taking knives for their +1 Assault heroes instead of the Dagger. I'm just pointing that out for anyone interested. Like I said, no further help is needed, I already understood how the Dagger works.


ASEF

Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [30/09/2021] à 05:26

Quote from ASEF on [29/09/2021] à 23:27


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [29/09/2021] à 21:42

Most of your arguments are straw man arguments.


Giving a Dagger to a unit that already has that level of Assault is not the purpose of the Dagger. It is to give a unit that does not have Assault the ability to initiate an assault and also roll two dice. Rolling two dice gives a unit (on average) +1 on their result as well.


A unit without the Assault ability can only use a Knife defensively, and will get (on average) a result 1 lower than a unit rolling two dice with the same bonus. Thus it is less effective than your evaluation.


But if you do not see the value of the Dagger, then don't take it. I am not going to keep going back and forth over this. It is not going to magically change its function.


-Knives can be used together, but Daggers cannot be used together.


That is an utterly irrelevant point, since they in no way perform the same function. I simply do not accept that as a premise at all.


-SS Dagger is different to Dagger in name and colour of numberings only.


Your refusal to accept how bonuses to rolls vs. special abilities work in V2 products renders any continuation of this discussion pointless. I recommend you stick only with V1 products, because you will be increasingly confounded by V2 formatting going forward.


I have explained the various differences in the notation between V1 and V2. This is not a guess on my part, this comes from years of discussion with the designers of the game.



Nostradunwhich, my points regarding the balance are a comparison between the utility of the Knife and the Dagger. We both know that most of the units that can benefit from such weapons already have Assault +1, and therefore the Dagger is so circumstantial that it's almost never the better option. Again, I understand the difference, I'm suggesting as a house rule for them to be treated the same way, especially in light of no specific rules or keywords for the Dagger, so that it could be used efficiently for most heroes (von Krok, von Kamptz, Siegfried and others). The Dagger is an odd exception to all the other "melee weapons" that are available in HoN. If one was to consider the Dagger as a bonus like all the other melee weapons, it would just be more consistent and I think would be be more useful for a greater number of heroes. It could then be used in conjunction with Fuhrer's Fury, as well as Melee Expert and Melee Master (and would always impart a full +2 bonus like the Knife). As you can hopefully see, I'm offering an alternative to the official rule for anyone interested, not challenging the rule itself.


This is merely a house rule suggestion from the player perspective. None of my points are irrelevant in the absence of written rules or keywords for the Dagger. From the consumer perspective, it's already an extra step for us to come to the forums to get "clarifications" about ambiguous or changing rules. Perhaps a notation and official description for the "Dagger" should be added to the Compendium Clarifications thread (or another relevant thread) for easy reference. I think many players already consider the Dagger as a bonus by mistake, not realizing the difference while quickly glancing at the options (since the closest thing in the keywords section to the Dagger is the "Knife" which gives a bonus – even though the former gives the ability and the latter only gives a bonus). There's no reason to get defensive. I'm not challenging your years of experience with the game at all. You confirmed that the dagger is different than the knife, which is very helpful. I'm just discussing why the Dagger is in most cases the less efficient, very circumstantial option. I'm offering my input as a player who loves the game, so that the Dagger marker can perhaps get more use for other heroes. Maybe other players will start taking knives for their +1 Assault heroes instead of the Dagger. I'm just pointing that out for anyone interested. Like I said, no further help is needed, I already understood how the Dagger works.


I think like you, more or less… And I start to get confused… Whole of them, knives, daggers and daggers of the SS do present same icons upon them and all grant +2 to something, would it be the melee skill or the die roll bonus…

I treated them all as being the same weapon type… But now I start really to be confused and "upset" so to speak, because to differentiate only by colours the one or the other, is a mess indeed.

For me, also, daggers and SS daggers should be used to give troops +2 on combat rolls, knife, should grant +1 only, since it is shorter and has less "reach" when compared to the others. Daggers also could represent the US Bowie knives or similar knives, maybe used by FFI partisans…

I also think that the rule "if your troop has not the knife icon it cannot do melee attacks" is kinda nonsense: in real war people uses also bare teeth, rocks and bare hands or kicks to overcome the enemy, or the end of the rifles or baits… Then, when I play, I house rule that EACH troop can start a charge in melee… But only those "with +2" or similar icon onto them, can roll 2 dice… It depicts the fact that they are infantries expecially trained in hand to hand combat… While each other troop can roll 1 die only. Then, each melee weapon ADDS its bonus printed to the combat values… Not the other way around…

I also think to use the house rule "throwing knives", which implies the chance for troops and heroes using knives, to decide to use them in melee, and have the +2 bonus in combat… Or decide to throw them towards the enemy if they are 1 square away from it… But adding +1 only to the die roll… Since it is cool and "hollywood style", to grant them such skill… But, nonetheless, it remains clear that it is more difficult to kill the targeted enemies… As it is clear that in history we had a plentiful of examples of throwing knives: from japanese ninjas to chinese and korean ones, from borneo fighters to indian ones… From african zulus to australian boomerang throwers and so on…


Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [30/09/2021] à 23:25

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [30/09/2021] à 05:26


I think like you, more or less… And I start to get confused… Whole of them, knives, daggers and daggers of the SS do present same icons upon them and all grant +2 to something, would it be the melee skill or the die roll bonus…

I treated them all as being the same weapon type… But now I start really to be confused and "upset" so to speak, because to differentiate pnly by colours the one or the other, is a mess indeed.

For me, also, daggers and SS daggers should be used to give troops +2 on combat rolls, knife, should grant +1 only, since it is shorter and has less "reach" when compared to the others. Daggers also could represent the US Bowie knives or similar knives, maybe used by FFI partisans…

I also think that the rule "if your troop has not the knife icon it cannot do melee attacks"… It is nonsense: in real war people uses also bare teeth, rocks and bare hands or kicks to overcome the enemy, or the end of the rifles or baits… Then, when I play, I house rule that EACH troop can start a charge in melee… But only those "with +2" or similar icon onto them, can roll 2 dice… It depicts the fact that are infantries expecially trained in hand to hand combat… While each other troop can roll 1 die only. Then, each melee weapon ADDS its bonus printed to the combat values… Not the other way around…

I also think to use the house rule "throwing knives", which implies the chance for troops and heroes using knives, to decide to use them in melee, and have the +2 bonus in combat… Or decide to throw them towards the enemy if they are 1 square away from it… But adding +1 only to the die roll… Since it is cool and "hollywood style", to grant them such skill… But, nonetheless, it remains clear that it is more difficilt to kill the targeted enemies… As it is clear that in history we had a plentiful of examples of throwing knives: from japanese ninjas to chinese and korean ones, from borneo fighters to indian ones… From african zulus to australian boomerang throwers and so on…


Hi Ivan,


Those are some awesome ideas! I think that the suggestion in which all infantry can initiate an assault (if they don't have the assault ability, they only roll one die) is especially great and makes a lot of sense!


That way, the assault ability would be the melee equivalent of the multi-barrel special ability (the one that Seb Jakobus and the automatic flak guns have). If we combine your idea with my own suggestion (that all the melee weapons just provide a bonus and not the ability), that would make for a really cool house rule, and could work really well. I'm going to try that out for sure!


Thanks man!


ASEF

Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [01/10/2021] à 00:53

My apologies to both ASEF and Ivan for confusing one persons post for the other and misreading it.


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Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [05/10/2021] à 05:37

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [01/10/2021] à 00:53

My apologies to both ASEF and Ivan for confusing one persons post for the other and misreading it.



You are welcome… But we disagree on the fact that daggers and ss daggers are considered different along with knives… More or less they are the same weapon, apart the major "reach" that usually daggers do have, being greater in size, if compared to knives… For me knives should be given the chance to be thrown to the enemy, but should grant only a +1 bonus to die rolls in melee… While the daggers of every kind should grant the melee skill/ability to those that have not such, but also could grant a +2 as bonus (being them more small swords, rather than knives!!!).

Such thing, however, could be balanced by the fact that daggers should't be allowed to be thrown to kill the enemy because, usually, they are/were heavier, unbalanced (not aerodinamic) and then were unsuited forbthe purpose to be thrown (while cwrtain knives are)!!!


Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [08/10/2021] à 20:46

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [05/10/2021] à 05:37

we disagree on the fact that daggers and ss daggers are considered different along with knives…


As I have already said many times.


HoN is a WW2-themed board game about Hollywood heroic action. Some decisions in how gear are represented may differ from what anyone considers "realistic" for purposes of game play. As long as such things are logically consistent within the framework of the game, they are what they are. I don't mean to make this sound dismissive, and please feel free to come up with any house rules that you and your opponent agree to use to make the game fit your expectation, but arguments about "realism" are not really relevant.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Dagger vs. Knife Posted on [18/10/2021] à 05:06

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [08/10/2021] à 20:46


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [05/10/2021] à 05:37

we disagree on the fact that daggers and ss daggers are considered different along with knives…


As I have already said many times.


HoN is a WW2-themed board game about Hollywood heroic action. Some decisions in how gear are represented may differ from what anyone considers "realistic" for purposes of game play. As long as such things are logically consistent within the framework of the game, they are what they are. I don't mean to make this sound dismissive, and please feel free to come up with any house rules that you and your opponent agree to use to make the game fit your expectation, but arguments about "realism" are not really relevant.


Ok… But the point that, in my humble opinion still remains is: more than 1 single rule, for items that are, and have icons, more or less similar from each other add complexity and more cases to remember or rules to remember… And with all the other stuff that exists in the game system, is often forgot each single case…


Here, less is better… For me and the other guy posting this thread / topic before me. As for me, I try always to follow the rules, but the one saying that ss daggers are different from daggers and knives are diffent from those two… Or that one saying the impossibility to charge in melee for troops with no knife icon upon them… Is simply not realistic / nonsense… Expecially if we think that often, in Stalingrad above all, troops fought hand to hand and often with teeth, kicks, punches or rocks and so on… And usually the average soldier was and is trained to start or defend himself from / conduct melee brawls and fights…

And remember the Starship Troopers' movie quote: "Yes, we live in a nuclear threats environment and the threat of nuclear warfare… But if you disable the hands of the enemy, he cannot push the button to lauch a nuke warhead towards you… And you just need a knife to incapacitate his hand… And knives don' t run out of ammo. Never. Only when you die or lose the will to fight, they do so"!!!


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