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Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability
Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [03/10/2021] à 18:11

Hi everybody!


I have a couple of questions about how Mad Jack Churchill's arrow ability works:


1) Is it affected by suppression?

2) If he succeeds in hitting – and therefore "destroying" an enemy unit with his arrow ability – can Life Point be used to save the enemy unit? Is the arrow treated as a double hit, or is the unit destroyed without the chance to use Life Point(s) at all? If Life Point can be used, does 1 marker bring a unit back to the wounded side, and two Life Point markers bring the unit back to full health?


Thanks!

Alex


ASEF

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [05/10/2021] à 05:54

Quote from ASEF on [03/10/2021] à 18:11

Hi everybody!


I have a couple of questions about how Mad Jack Churchill's arrow ability works:


1) Is it affected by suppression?

2) If he succeeds in hitting – and therefore "destroying" an enemy unit with his arrow ability – can Life Point be used to save the enemy unit? Is the arrow treated as a double hit, or is the unit destroyed without the chance to use Life Point(s) at all? If Life Point can be used, does 1 marker bring a unit back to the wounded side, and two Life Point markers bring the unit back to full health?


Thanks!

Alex


Hi…

I want to say that for me such arrow skill is too much op and unrealistic, such as the melee base value of Von Kamptz character, but… Anyway…

I see that it is a sort of alternative attack type, then it SHOULD be affected by suppression tokens… And it is comprensible: such markers are obtained when enemy troops fire upon you… And if they do so, for you (mad jack user) should be more difficult to aim the arrow and bow correctly and with ease!!! I don' t know if you get my point!!!


As for the 2nd point… As I can read from the Compendium, nothing it is said about such case…

It states that "the unit is destroyed"…

So… Multiple lifepoints should not be taken into account.

I however suggest you to roll 1D6:

If you obtain 1 to 3, your target with multi-life points is killed without appeal!!! If, instead, you obtain 4 and 5, you only assign a damage token to your "multilifepoints" troop… And, if you rolled a 6, instead… You assign double wounds…


By doing do you can contain the "overpowerness" of such Arrow skill and, in the meanwhile, continue to see some usefulness within the multi-lifepoints ability too; which, otherwise, could be too much nerfed by the Arrow skill itself…


Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [05/10/2021] à 06:03

Quote from ASEF on [03/10/2021] à 18:11

Hi everybody!


I have a couple of questions about how Mad Jack Churchill's arrow ability works:


1) Is it affected by suppression?

2) If he succeeds in hitting – and therefore "destroying" an enemy unit with his arrow ability – can Life Point be used to save the enemy unit? Is the arrow treated as a double hit, or is the unit destroyed without the chance to use Life Point(s) at all? If Life Point can be used, does 1 marker bring a unit back to the wounded side, and two Life Point markers bring the unit back to full health?


Thanks!

Alex


…I want to add a thing or two:

I see the Arrow skill to be the most op and "cartoon-style" skill of all the HoN system/game… So I would use it more or less like a sniper skill, rather than the way it is written in the rules… If ever I would have the chance to see such character deployed/used in my gaming sessions: until now I had the chance to see such character "in action" only twice, and both times in a "solo play – stand alone match"… But I disliked it from the very 1st time I saw it "in action", for its "unrealistic-ness"…


Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [06/10/2021] à 15:35

Hi Ivan!


Thanks for your input about this special ability.


On the first point, I agree with you entirely. I think suppression should definitely be applied, and I assumed that to be the case as well.


On the second point though, I'm not so sure. The word "destroyed" is used throughout the rules quite a bit, and I don't think it means that Life Point cannot be used (after all, that's what "Life Point" is specifically for – units that would otherwise be destroyed can get a second chance). When localizing tank damages, you can "destroy" the gun, and later you can "repair" it back to operational function. The gun isn't permanently and irrevocably destroyed.


Here's the rule for "Double Hit": If the result of the firing roll is equal to or higher than double the target unit's Defense value (including any bonus), the target unit is immediately Destroyed and removed from the game or turned over to its Wreck side. This rule also applies to heavy vehicles."


But, here's the rule for Life Point: Some units have life points. Discard one to cancel one Damage or one Hit the unit just suffered. If the shot inflicted a double loss, you must discard 2 Life Point markers. If the unit does not have enough Life Point markers, it suffers one Hit per missing marker."


Those two rules are why I think Life Point can be used if a unit gets hit with Mad Jack's arrow. First of all, I think that Mad Jack's arrow counts as a "hit" that can destroy a healthy unit by inflicting a "double loss." If a "Double Hit" immediately destroys a unit, and Life Point is able to be used against a shot that "inflicted a double loss," that would mean that it could be used for the arrow as well (since it can be used for a unit that would otherwise be "destroyed and removed from the game" from a Double Hit). Lot's of different actions "destroy" units, and I think that Life Point can be used for any of them with the exception of a forced move that pushes a unit off the map, which is the only scenario where Life Point won't help. But in this case w/ the arrow ability, I think that Life Point can be used based on the wording. If Life Point works for a Double Hit (that "destroys and removes from game" an enemy unit) that must also mean that Life Point works for the arrow, which destroys the targeted unit if successfully hit.


Thanks again man!

Alex


ASEF

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [07/10/2021] à 14:52

Well, "destroyed" is "destroyed". No Life Point occurs. It's like an infantry unit who have to retreat but no free place to do it, or like a non-amphibious vehicle going in the water. It's destroyed. No more, no less.


Well, it's cheated? Perhaps, but Mad Jack did well kill several people with his bow and arrows. So, it's unrealistic but it's very real.

Using the arrow is not easy with the actual rules, you have a major risk of failure. And MadJack cost a lot.

Then, this option is well balanced and not munchkin.


You can change rules to avoid this Hollywood part, but then, it's perhaps faster for you to change game. See ASL or other board games for better realistic simulation.


Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [07/10/2021] à 17:51

Quote from cdmdu on [07/10/2021] à 14:52

Well, "destroyed" is "destroyed". No Life Point occurs. It's like an infantry unit who have to retreat but no free place to do it, or like a non-amphibious vehicle going in the water. It's destroyed. No more, no less.


Well, it's cheated? Perhaps, but Mad Jack did well kill several people with his bow and arrows. So, it's unrealistic but it's very real.

Using the arrow is not easy with the actual rules, you have a major risk of failure. And MadJack cost a lot.

Then, this option is well balanced and not munchkin.


You can change rules to avoid this Hollywood part, but then, it's perhaps faster for you to change game. See ASL or other board games for better realistic simulation.


Hi cdmdu,


I'm still rather unsure about this one for the same reasons I mentioned to Ivan. Here's the summary of reasons:


1) The Life Point marker literally has the "destroyed" red-skull symbol, suggesting that it's use is to keep units alive that would have otherwise been destroyed. Many types of actions will "destroy" units, and that doesn't prevent life point from being used in other situations.

2) Life Point can be used to ignore a "hit," and Mad Jack's arrow is treated as a hit as well. Perhaps the arrow ability doesn't actually inflict a "double loss" but it's a "hit that destroys a unit (healthy or wounded)."

3) If "Double Hit" instantly destroys an enemy unit and Life Point can be used against a shot that inflicts a "double loss," wouldn't that also apply to the arrow ability, which also destroys the unit? The arrow ability rule does not specifically state that customizations cannot be used to reverse the destruction.

4) As I wrote to Ivan, I think that the only situation where Life Point cannot be used is if the unit gets pushed off the map or is trapped by ZoC, in which it cannot use it's Life Point, since it has nowhere to go and cannot retreat. So long as the unit has a place on the map to retreat/force move to, it would seem that Life Point can be used.


If the above is true, I really don't think Mad Jack's arrow ability could be considered overpowered at all. If his arrow can snipe a unit without the chance to use Life Point though, I would think differently. It would then seem overkill – at least in my opinion.


On a side note, I think Mad Jack only got one confirmed hit on an enemy with his bow, when "he shot a German soldier from 30 yards with an arrow at the village of L’Epinette near Bethune." Anyhow, this is besides the point! He makes for a good Hollywood action movie character for sure!


ASEF

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [08/10/2021] à 20:55

Quote from ASEF on [07/10/2021] à 17:51


Quote from cdmdu on [07/10/2021] à 14:52

Well, "destroyed" is "destroyed". No Life Point occurs. It's like an infantry unit who have to retreat but no free place to do it, or like a non-amphibious vehicle going in the water. It's destroyed. No more, no less.


1) The Life Point marker literally has the "destroyed" red-skull symbol, suggesting that it's use is to keep units alive that would have otherwise been destroyed. Many types of actions will "destroy" units, and that doesn't prevent life point from being used in other situations.

2) Life Point can be used to ignore a "hit," and Mad Jack's arrow is treated as a hit as well. Perhaps the arrow ability doesn't actually inflict a "double loss" but it's a "hit that destroys a unit (healthy or wounded)."


No, the arrow does not generate a hit. If it did, it would use that language on p.65 of the Compendium, since a Hit causes a unit to flip if it can take more than one Hit (like a Fire Team). The language clearly says DESTROYED, just as the rules for a unit that cannot retreat from an Assault or cannot bail out of a destroyed vehicle is DESTROYED.


A Life Point only stops a Hit, it cannot prevent a unit from being DESTROYED.


For clarification, check out the Keywords on p.137 of the Compendium. A Destroyed unit is removed from the game.


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Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [08/10/2021] à 21:00

Quote from ASEF on [07/10/2021] à 17:51

3) If "Double Hit" instantly destroys an enemy unit and Life Point can be used against a shot that inflicts a "double loss," wouldn't that also apply to the arrow ability, which also destroys the unit? The arrow ability rule does not specifically state that customizations cannot be used to reverse the destruction.


That is a logical leap. A Double-hit is a hit with enough force to double the defense of the unit. It provides 2 hits to a unit, which is enough to destroy any normal infantry in the game. It uses the Hit keyword and mechanics, don't try to reframe it as a "double loss". A target Hero would be destroyed by the Arrow even if they have a Life Point.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [09/10/2021] à 02:30

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [08/10/2021] à 20:55


Quote from ASEF on [07/10/2021] à 17:51


Quote from cdmdu on [07/10/2021] à 14:52

Well, "destroyed" is "destroyed". No Life Point occurs. It's like an infantry unit who have to retreat but no free place to do it, or like a non-amphibious vehicle going in the water. It's destroyed. No more, no less.


1) The Life Point marker literally has the "destroyed" red-skull symbol, suggesting that it's use is to keep units alive that would have otherwise been destroyed. Many types of actions will "destroy" units, and that doesn't prevent life point from being used in other situations.

2) Life Point can be used to ignore a "hit," and Mad Jack's arrow is treated as a hit as well. Perhaps the arrow ability doesn't actually inflict a "double loss" but it's a "hit that destroys a unit (healthy or wounded)."


No, the arrow does not generate a hit. If it did, it would use that language on p.65 of the Compendium, since a Hit causes a unit to flip if it can take more than one Hit (like a Fire Team). The language clearly says DESTROYED, just as the rules for a unit that cannot retreat from an Assault or cannot bail out of a destroyed vehicle is DESTROYED.


A Life Point only stops a Hit, it cannot prevent a unit from being DESTROYED.


For clarification, check out the Keywords on p.137 of the Compendium. A Destroyed unit is removed from the game.



Hey Nostradunwhich,


Thanks for the clarification, I honestly wasn't sure about this one.


In virtually every boardgame, a "hit" is described as a successful roll or attack, so this is somewhat unusual terminology (rolls/attacks either "hit" or miss). The description for a HoN "Hit" is: "Damage suffered by units (except for heavy vehicles). When a unit suffers a Hit, it is either turned over onto its Reduced side or to its Wreck side, or Destroyed." I was thinking along the lines of "the arrow causes damage – that's how the unit becomes destroyed."


The rule for "Double Hit" reads: "If the result of the firing roll is equal to or higher than double the target unit's Defense value (including any bonus), the target unit is immediately Destroyed and removed from the game or turned over to its Wreck side. This rule also applies to heavy vehicles." Based on what you're saying, it would also seem that a "Double Hit" would also "immediately destroy and remove the target unit" as it's described. The rule doesn't explicitly say that it causes 2 hits, and it could easily be interpreted as "a hit that achieves double the required value to hit" (double the value = destruction, rather than 2 separate hits). Moreover, there's only one or two references to "double loss" in the Compendium, and it's not attached to "Double Hit" or any specific ability. I would definitely suggest adding a notation to the Compendium Clarifications thread, to state something along the lines of "Double Hit inflicts two hits. The lines about immediately destroying and removing the target unit should be deleted." That was the source of confusion. I think the only types of "Double losses" come from the British Sniper rolling a 6, Bloodthirsty assault and from "Double Hit."


I'm just trying to understand the rules as thoroughly as possible, and appreciate the help. I was honestly thinking that Life Point could be used for the arrow, and so this is a good catch! This rule was easy to misinterpret, given the wording for "Double Hit" and that a destruction can be countered by cards and veteran markers, so I was thinking that Life Point could also prevent destruction. But I guess not!


Thanks again!


ASEF

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [09/10/2021] à 23:03

Citation de ASEF Le [09/10/2021] à 02:30

I would definitely suggest adding a notation to the Compendium Clarifications thread, to state something along the lines of "Double Hit inflicts two hits. The lines about immediately destroying and removing the target unit should be deleted." That was the source of confusion.


Thanks again!


Well, no. "Double Hit" doesn't mean "two hits". If "Double hit" ("Total Shoot value" ≥ 2x "Total Defense value"), then, the defensive unit is "destroyed". RIP !

In French, "Coup double" has a double meaning:

It could be "Double Hit" but it's above all "Double effect". Here, it could mean "attack succeeded AND unit destroyed". Like a kiss-cool!


https://youtu.be/G85r9G6bJBI


Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [10/10/2021] à 00:51

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [08/10/2021] à 21:00


A Double-hit is a hit with enough force to double the defense of the unit. It provides 2 hits to a unit, which is enough to destroy any normal infantry in the game. It uses the Hit keyword and mechanics


Well, that's what Nostradunwhich wrote. Like I was saying, I'm just trying to learn, and am not too sure.


If Double Hit does inflict 2 hits (as Nostradunwhich was saying, since it uses the keyword "hit"), then Life Point could be used. If it outright destroys the unit, it's treated sort of like the arrow and Life Point cannot be used.


ASEF

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [10/10/2021] à 09:52

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [08/10/2021] à 21:00

A Double-hit is a hit with enough force to double the defense of the unit. It provides 2 hits to a unit, which is enough to destroy any normal infantry in the game. It uses the Hit keyword and mechanics, don't try to reframe it as a "double loss". A target Hero would be destroyed by the Arrow even if they have a Life Point.


I was discussing mechanics concepts, and did not couch it correctly.


A Double-hit is a hit with enough force to double the defense of the unit. It provides THE EQUIVALENT of 2 hits to a unit, which WOULD BE enough to destroy any normal infantry in the game.


My point about the hero still stands, they would be destroyed even with a Life Point by an Arrow (or any other mechanic that causes the unit to be Destroyed).


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Mad Jack Churchill's Arrow Ability Posted on [10/10/2021] à 16:58

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [10/10/2021] à 09:52


I was discussing mechanics concepts, and did not couch it correctly.


A Double-hit is a hit with enough force to double the defense of the unit. It provides THE EQUIVALENT of 2 hits to a unit, which WOULD BE enough to destroy any normal infantry in the game.


My point about the hero still stands, they would be destroyed even with a Life Point by an Arrow (or any other mechanic that causes the unit to be Destroyed).



Yes, we already established this about the arrow. We transitioned into a discussion about the Double Hit rule, which also appears to outright destroy the unit – just like the arrow – if successful. It's maybe a little bit confusing, since Double Hit uses the keyword "hit," but as cdmdu was correctly pointing out, "Double Hit" has a double meaning: it inflicts a single hit equivalent to 2 hits that outright destroys the targeted unit if successful. So, all clear!


Thanks to both Nostradunwhich and cdmdu for the help!


Alex


ASEF

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