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[V1.2][Unofficial] HoN Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback
[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [23/12/2014] à 09:53

Dreamshade: looks great, I like the way that your re-write flows. Lays out the basics in a clear manner and good use of relevant examples (with images).


Keep up the awesome work.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [29/12/2014] à 02:53

Progress report, near completion with base rules:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8mkqu1m0329lzk/HoN_Unofficial_Manual_beta04.pdf?dl=0


Stuff to do: fix all of the page numbers and page references, update the table of contents, proofread for typos, create a quick reference for the back page, try and cram the component list in somewhere. Otherwise, pretty close to done.


This would be the best point to read through and offer feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing anything.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [29/12/2014] à 07:09

On the first read through, I do like the work you have done. Very nice!


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [30/12/2014] à 06:46

New questions, someone may be able to answer:


The Germans have the initiative. The German player reveals the Order #1 token, and that German unit fires and destroys the American unit with the Order #1 token. Which unit activates next—the German #2 unit, or the American #2 unit?


Can a unit inside a defensive position be hit by a grenade if the grenade isn't thrown into the position by an adjacent unit?


Can an immobilized unit (0 movement due to Suppressed markers) move into an adjacent Transport?


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [30/12/2014] à 07:29

Quote from dreamshade on [30/12/2014] à 06:46

The Germans have the initiative. The German player reveals the Order #1 token, and that German unit fires and destroys the American unit with the Order #1 token. Which unit activates next—the German #2 unit, or the American #2 unit?


German Order #2.


Quote from dreamshade on [30/12/2014] à 06:46

Can a unit inside a defensive position be hit by a grenade if the grenade isn't thrown into the position by an adjacent unit?


Yes, but they get the defense bonus for the position.


Quote from dreamshade on [30/12/2014] à 06:46

Can an immobilized unit (0 movement due to Suppressed markers) move into an adjacent Transport?


Ooooh. Good question. Axel?


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [30/12/2014] à 16:14

Couple others:


The Germans have initiative, but the Americans have a special order. The Americans want to reveal the special order before any other units. Which unit acts first, the German #1 (with initiative), or the American special order?


I have a Rifle Platoon tile with a .30 Cal Squad option. A .30 Cal unit and a Fire Team unit die. These units are placed below the .30 Cal Squad, flipping that option (two breaking points). Then, a Support Team dies. This unit appears on both the .30 Cal Squad and the recruitment tile. Do I place this unit below the option, which has already flipped, or do I place it below the recruitment tile?


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [30/12/2014] à 19:19

Quote from dreamshade on [30/12/2014] à 16:14

The Germans have initiative, but the Americans have a special order. The Americans want to reveal the special order before any other units. Which unit acts first, the German #1 (with initiative), or the American special order?


Edit to update this: The American's Special Order as an "Order 0" can come before the German player's Order 1. This is official from Axel.

In my experience dealing with an Autonomous units my opponent and I agreed that since that unit likewise cannot "interrupt an activation" that it could not insert in the order before the player with initiative. After all, if there is a dispute on order, it goes to the player with initiative anyway.


Quote from dreamshade on [30/12/2014] à 16:14

I have a Rifle Platoon tile with a .30 Cal Squad option. A .30 Cal unit and a Fire Team unit die. These units are placed below the .30 Cal Squad, flipping that option (two breaking points). Then, a Support Team dies. This unit appears on both the .30 Cal Squad and the recruitment tile. Do I place this unit below the option, which has already flipped, or do I place it below the recruitment tile?


Depending on how you want to interpret the illustration in the rulebook (p. 5), I think it shows exactly the answer to your question. That illustration shows the 60mm mortar ALREADY flipped due to the grayed out unit, which would indicate the grayed out units are already lost. Thus it appears to show that the newly lost unit should be allocated to the .30 cal squad first before the main unit.


The rules specifically say that a destroyed unit belongs to the option BEFORE the tile, and there is no language in there to exclude broken units, so it goes to the broken unit first.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [31/12/2014] à 09:17

If a destroyed unit belongs to both a tile and a recruitment option, you must assign the loss to the option.


I agree with Nostradunwhich's interpretation.


Dreamshade: I'll look over your newest version and follow up with feedback.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [04/01/2015] à 07:21

Dreamshade – great job on the unofficial re-write. I only found a few items that need correction/clarification.


1) Page 4, Column 2, "Some infantry machine guns, bazookas, or other heavy weapons." SHOULD READ "Some infantry have machine guns, bazookas, or other heavy weapons."


2) Page 4, Column 2, image of heavy vehicle shows the front armor value as 7 SHOULD READ 9.


3) Page 5, Column 2, "Custom Decks: Some scenarios also allow players to customize their hero decks." SHOULD READ "Custom Decks: Some scenarios also allow players to customize their card decks."


4) Page 10, Column 2, "Heavy Vehicle : Roll a die, then place the matching damage marker on the vehicle. No bonuses or penalties affect this roll." CLARIFY: not sure if it is necessary to mention Oddball's Positive Waves special ability or the It Bounced Right Off card.


5) Page 15, Column 1, "When a team captures an objective or scores victory points, it doesn't immediately immediately win the battle. I t must hold its positions until the Victory Conditions step of the Supply Phase!" SHOULD READ "When a team captures an objective or scores victory points, it doesn't immediately win the battle. It must hold its positions until the Victory Conditions step of the Supply Phase!"


That's it for issues that I could find. Again, great job. I really like how the information is organized.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [04/01/2015] à 16:32

good work. Your rules are better than the original.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [05/01/2015] à 20:31

Progress report:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pobydghk8m0e5s8/HoN_Unofficial_Manual_beta07.pdf?dl=0


Quote from KITUP on [04/01/2015] à 07:21

3) Page 5, Column 2, "Custom Decks: Some scenarios also allow players to customize their hero decks." SHOULD READ "Custom Decks: Some scenarios also allow players to customize their card decks."


Hahaha, the last manual I rewrote used "hero decks" instead of "action card decks." I should probably update my mental vocabulary. 😛


4) Page 10, Column 2, "Heavy Vehicle : Roll a die, then place the matching damage marker on the vehicle. No bonuses or penalties affect this roll." CLARIFY: not sure if it is necessary to mention Oddball's Positive Waves special ability or the It Bounced Right Off card.


I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that cards and abilities can break the basic rules.


I was at a small local gaming convention this weekend… and I finally played HoN for the first time. Yeah, two or three months working on the manual, and I finally played the game. Derp. But it was good! I'm especially impressed by the iconography—it's very easy to look across the map and see what numbers you need to hit and what abilities everyone has. And the action cards kept the game from being as dry as other tactical games.


The game also gave us another edge case question, when I tried to assault a defensive position from an adjacent hedgerow, and we had to stop and decide if the unit in the position was allowed to use opportunity fire before or after the assault…


So I have a few remaining questions:


* Where do assaults fit in on the movement order? If an American unit assaults an adjacent German unit with opportunity fire, can the German unit fire before the assault? If the German unit wins the assault and pushes the American unit back to the previous square, can the German unit shoot the American unit in that square with opportunity fire?


* Do one-square vehicles (like the Zundapp and Willys .50 Cal) move like two-square vehicles, where they must move in the direction that they point? Or can they move in any of the 8 directions, as an infantry unit does?


* Are there any objections to my rewrite of the rules for "Disarray," where a team loses all of its units but can still run a scenario to a draw? (On page 15 of the rewrite.)


* For the expansion manual, how is a high command tile different from a field command tile? Can a team have more than one high command tile?


I haven't heard from Axel in a bit—I think he may be away for the holiday. Otherwise, my plans are to write up a quick reference for the back page, and call that version the final version of the basic rules.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [05/01/2015] à 22:34

Quote from dreamshade on [05/01/2015] à 20:31

I was at a small local gaming convention this weekend… and I finally played HoN for the first time…But it was good! I'm especially impressed by the iconography—it's very easy to look across the map and see what numbers you need to hit and what abilities everyone has. And the action cards kept the game from being as dry as other tactical games.


Welcome to HoN. 😉 Does this mean we will see you around on the forums after the rewrite project is complete?


The game also gave us another edge case question, when I tried to assault a defensive position from an adjacent hedgerow, and we had to stop and decide if the unit in the position was allowed to use opportunity fire before or after the assault…


So I have a few remaining questions:


* Where do assaults fit in on the movement order? If an American unit assaults an adjacent German unit with opportunity fire, can the German unit fire before the assault? If the German unit wins the assault and pushes the American unit back to the previous square, can the German unit shoot the American unit in that square with opportunity fire?


Oooh. Good question!


Given the wording on Assault having to be "from an adjacent space" and ALSO "must follow the movement rules", then that would mean the assault action should trigger a chance to OpFire.


I would say the failure of the assault forcing the unit back to its starting block should not generate a chance for OpFire. That is a "failure to assault" so basically the unit fails to leave the square. I think it prevents "double jeopardy" that way. You get the chance before the assault roll, so you still get a chance to fire.


* Do one-square vehicles (like the Zundapp and Willys .50 Cal) move like two-square vehicles, where they must move in the direction that they point? Or can they move in any of the 8 directions, as an infantry unit does?


Another interesting question.


Given the specific rules for two-space vehicles, I would assume that one space vehicles more just like squads. As such they would not have to pay a movement point to turn.


* Are there any objections to my rewrite of the rules for "Disarray," where a team loses all of its units but can still run a scenario to a draw? (On page 15 of the rewrite.)


The rules for refreshing your Order limit in the Supply Phase explicitly say if you have no orders you lose:


Quote from v1.2b of the rules, p. 10:

Take the number of Order tokens to which you are entitled. Make sure it equals the number of stars you currently have (especially if you suffered losses). If you no longer have any units or orders, you lose the game!


So I don't think the Disarray text is a good idea.


Quote from dreamshade on [05/01/2015] à 20:31

* For the expansion manual, how is a high command tile different from a field command tile? Can a team have more than one high command tile?


Given the limit added to the Multiplayer rules, I would assume you get only 1 high command.


It would seem they were basing the original limit on the fact you only have one since most fans would not buy two Army boxes, but since multiple people could bring their own, they put in an explicit limit. If you can only have 1 if you are one of two people on a side, I would say it likely that you can only have 1 if you are the only player on a side 😉


I haven't heard from Axel in a bit—I think he may be away for the holiday. Otherwise, my plans are to write up a quick reference for the back page, and call that version the final version of the basic rules.


He is back in the office, but I am not sure where answering you fits on his to-do list but I suspect he may get back to you pretty quickly.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [06/01/2015] à 03:47

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [05/01/2015] à 22:34

Welcome to HoN. 😉 Does this mean we will see you around on the forums after the rewrite project is complete?


Ugh, when am I gonna have time for that? D:


Given the wording on Assault having to be "from an adjacent space" and ALSO "must follow the movement rules", then that would mean the assault action should trigger a chance to OpFire.


I would say the failure of the assault forcing the unit back to its starting block should not generate a chance for OpFire. That is a "failure to assault" so basically the unit fails to leave the square. I think it prevents "double jeopardy" that way. You get the chance before the assault roll, so you still get a chance to fire.


OpFire only triggers AFTER each square of movement, according to the official movement order. That would mean that OpFire should only trigger after the attacker moves into the target's square. But the attacker can't actually enter the square unless it wins the assault.


We decided to play it so that the assault triggers first, as the direct result of moving into the square, and if the assault failed, then the target would get a chance for OpFire, as though the attacker had taken a 0 Movement action.


And yes, this actually happened. We played the Plain Carnage scenario, and there is one square of hedgerow on the German side of the defensive position. During the Supply Phase, I moved a unit out of the forest and into the hedgerow so that it could assault on the next turn.


So I don't think the Disarray text is a good idea.


dreamshade: A rule in the rulebook says that a team immediately loses if it has no units or order stars. The scenario The Road to Death says that the American player wins by moving heavy vehicles off of the map before the battle ends on Turn 7. If the Americans destroy all of the German units, but the Americans don't move any heavy vehicles off of the map, who wins?


Axel: The american player has all the remaining turns to exit a vehicle, otherwise, it's a draw.


I read Axel's response as saying that a team only immediately loses if the other team can still complete all of its objectives. I could be wrong.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [06/01/2015] à 09:02

Quote from dreamshade on [06/01/2015] à 03:47


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [05/01/2015] à 22:34

Given the wording on Assault having to be "from an adjacent space" and ALSO "must follow the movement rules", then that would mean the assault action should trigger a chance to OpFire.


I would say the failure of the assault forcing the unit back to its starting block should not generate a chance for OpFire. That is a "failure to assault" so basically the unit fails to leave the square. I think it prevents "double jeopardy" that way. You get the chance before the assault roll, so you still get a chance to fire.


OpFire only triggers AFTER each square of movement, according to the official movement order. That would mean that OpFire should only trigger after the attacker moves into the target's square. But the attacker can't actually enter the square unless it wins the assault.


We decided to play it so that the assault triggers first, as the direct result of moving into the square, and if the assault failed, then the target would get a chance for OpFire, as though the attacker had taken a 0 Movement action.


And yes, this actually happened. We played the Plain Carnage scenario, and there is one square of hedgerow on the German side of the defensive position. During the Supply Phase, I moved a unit out of the forest and into the hedgerow so that it could assault on the next turn.


I cannot argue with your findings on that one. I was incorrect. I don't think I would personally do it if presented with that situation, but it is certainly in keeping with the rules and I would not blame someone for taking the shot.


Quote from dreamshade on [06/01/2015] à 03:47


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [05/01/2015] à 22:34

So I don't think the Disarray text is a good idea.


dreamshade: A rule in the rulebook says that a team immediately loses if it has no units or order stars. The scenario The Road to Death says that the American player wins by moving heavy vehicles off of the map before the battle ends on Turn 7. If the Americans destroy all of the German units, but the Americans don't move any heavy vehicles off of the map, who wins?


Axel: The american player has all the remaining turns to exit a vehicle, otherwise, it's a draw.


I read Axel's response as saying that a team only immediately loses if the other team can still complete all of its objectives. I could be wrong.


That would be a scenario-specific ruling. Scenarios often modify the rules a bit to achieve their goals, and I think this is one of those cases. For the general rules, I would go with the rule "if you lose all your units or all your orders, you lose the game".


For the scenario, I would certainly add the note there that even if one player is eliminated, the other can attempt to complete their own objectives.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [07/01/2015] à 05:41

Regarding opportunity fire at an adjacent unit about to assault the opp firing unit's position, I have interpreted the rules that allow opp fire "at any time during the movement of an enemy unit" to mean the shot can occur while the enemy unit is still in the start space and any time between arriving at the end space.


The movement sequence on the back page of rules v1.2b support this view as it says "move 0 or 1 space".


Therefore, my interpretation is the assaulted unit could opp fire either when the attacking unit begins its movement (0 movement) while still in the start space.


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [08/01/2015] à 06:14

Funny story, I just went through all of the tokens in the box to rewrite the component list. I just realized that all of the thicket tokens are on the back of defensive position tokens, and I looked at the back of the two-square defensive position. …The current version of the rewrite doesn't have the water icon in the terrain, because I thought that only showed up in the D-Day scenario. That was the first time during this whole thing that I realized there was a water overlay in the core box. >_>


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [08/01/2015] à 07:51

I have a mea culpa to report:


I checked with Axel for some info for the thread on Activation:

http://www.devil-pig-games.com/en/forum/?action=viewtopic&t=2466.0


And it turns out I was wrong about Special Orders, the "Order 0" declaration gives it numerical precedence over the Order 1 of the player with initiative.


Looking at the Rewrite, the question of "what happens if I lose my Order 1 token" as well as the "what happens if Player A has activated all their tokens, but Player B still has orders to activate". I understand that is not that simple to convey, but it is one of the issues that keeps recurring so I would hope it can be done 🙂


Instead or "Reveal Order Token #1" would it be better to write that as "Reveal first Order Token. Usually this is Order #1.", since the first token could be Order #0 😉 Or are you just going to let the Special Order violate the normal activation phase you describe on p. 6?


Edited to reword the following:

Perhaps the top of column 1 could have a change to the second phase:
2. Activation Phase! Players reveal order tokens, starting from the lowest numbered Order token, and order their units to move and fire.
I can certainly understand choosing to write the standard rules and let exceptions violate those rules as required, but then isn't the onus on the exception to clearly describe how it is used? That would mean including an option for "Order 0" for the Special Orders text.

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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [08/01/2015] à 15:46

Instead or "Reveal Order Token #1" would it be better to write that as "Reveal first Order Token. Usually this is Order #1.", since the first token could be Order #0 😉 Or are you just going to let the Special Order violate the normal activation phase you describe on p. 6?


Hrm. I was trying to fit all of my firing rules onto two or three pages, and I think I've run out of room on those pages, so anything else I want to fit in means I need to add a page in there and redo some of the layout. So I don't know. D:


On the flipside, that means I may have room to move machine gunner and suppressive fire to the firing section like you asked. D:


Also, check out this other cool Axel feedback!


dreamshade: Can the one-square vehicles (like the Zundapp and WIllys 50 Cal) move in eight directions, like infantry? Or do they only move in the directions that they face, like two-square vehicles?


Axel: In the 8 directions, like infantry.


dreamshade: When do assaults happen in movement resolution? I started a turn with a unit in a hedgerow adjacent to a defensive position. That unit assaulted an enemy in the position. Does the enemy get to take an opportunity fire shot before the assault resolves? If the assault fails and the attacker is pushed ack to the previous square, does the target get to make an opportunity fire shot?


Axel: Assault happen after ALL the move sequence. The unit in the position can make an opportunity fire before the assault and, if this unit didn’t take this opportunity, he can make an opportunity fire when the attacker retreats.


dreamshade: The original rules say that a team loses the game when it has no units or no order tokens. What if the other team can’t complete its objectives? For example, in Plain Carnage, what happens if one team destroys all of the other team’s units, but it can’t capture the objective before the end of the round? Or in The Heart Goes Boom, if the Americans destroy all of the German units but can’t plant the explosives before the end of the battle?


Axel: He wins.


dreamshade: Can an immobilized unit (zero movement) enter a transport vehicle?


Axel: No, he must have at least a movement value of « 1 ».


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [10/01/2015] à 17:27

Progress Report:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/besmd7r3c703pw4/HoN_Unofficial_Manual_beta11.pdf?dl=0


So, I think Nostradunwhich is right that I should have put some more of the special attacks with the firing rules. And maybe Transport should have its own section. And maybe I could have moved a few other things around.


However, I look at how much work it would require to move things around. And I remember that I still want to rewrite the scenario book and make an expansion abilities book.


And I think that if this were a professional project, then this is the point where the client would be emailing me saying, "We go to print next week, where is my final draft?!?!"


So I'm gonna leave this up for a few days and read through for proofreading one more time, and then this gets posted as my final build. Yay~


[Unofficial] Manual Rewrite: Questions and Feedback Posted on [18/01/2015] à 04:21

Base rules posted~

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/110560/unofficial-manual-rewrite


I'd prefer if you downloaded from the BGG file page the post count up, but you can use this dropbox link if you can't log in to BGG.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ub5ibmhr62npl9i/HoN_Unofficial_Manual_v1_0.pdf?dl=0


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