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Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible?
Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [07/11/2015] à 12:55

Hi fellow gamers,


yesterday I unboxed all my SoN Kickstarter stuff and noticed an interesting game detail:


The Zombies coming in the Cthulhu Mythos Exp. Pack Call #1 have different Terror numbers in the top left corner than the ones that came with the "Achtung!Cthulhu" and "More Zombies" Punch Boards from the first HoN Kickstarter.


Zombies: 8 (old) became 1 (new)

Fat Zombie: 7 (old) became 2 (new)

Mutant Zombie: 6 (old) became 3 (new)

Zombie Dogs: 8 (old) are not available in the SoN product line (yet).


After checking the rule sets, it turned out that the rules for a terror check has changed:


A!C: Roll a dice, add number of suppressed tokens. Draw Madness token if result is equal or higher than the terror value.

SoN: Roll a dice, subtract 2 for each suppressed token. Draw Madness token if result is less than the terror value.


So, the logic was inverted and that is the reason why the numbers changed. Unfortunately, this makes the unit tokens from the old material incompatible with the SoN product line.


@DPG: what is the plan here? I guess the easiest way would be to offer tiny overlay stickers for just the terror symbols. I guess it does not make much sense to reprint all the stuff just because of one value.


Dark


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [07/11/2015] à 17:10

This same discussion happened yesterday on the French forums. So what I am about to say is coming through a translation filter and I may not have it exactly correct. I will put the gist of what I have gotten from the French thread in code blocks.


During development of SoN, DPG realized the old system would not work with some of the more powerful monsters, so the system had to change. You can use the old zombies within the A!C scenarios and they work fine under the old rules.

To me, that means that the A!C boards still work fine within their original context. That is not what DPG is saying as any sort of official policy, that is just my personal opinion.


DPG is trying to figure out the best way to integrate the old version of the A!C kickstarter. No decision yet.

However, the new version of the A!C zombies are already available for download if you are willing to print out the updates.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [07/11/2015] à 22:05

Quote from DarkPadawan on [07/11/2015] à 12:55

Hi fellow gamers,


yesterday I unboxed all my SoN Kickstarter stuff and noticed an interesting game detail:


The Zombies coming in the Cthulhu Mythos Exp. Pack Call #1 have different Terror numbers in the top left corner than the ones that came with the "Achtung!Cthulhu" and "More Zombies" Punch Boards from the first HoN Kickstarter.


Zombies: 8 (old) became 1 (new)

Fat Zombie: 7 (old) became 2 (new)

Mutant Zombie: 6 (old) became 3 (new)

Zombie Dogs: 8 (old) are not available in the SoN product line (yet).


[snip]


Dark



I had the more zombies exclusive from the first KS on order as well – who also have the new values – and who still have the dogs.

Zombie Dogs are 1 now also


Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [07/11/2015] à 23:06

Short answer seems to be take old Terror value and subtract it from 9… that gets you the new Terror value.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [08/11/2015] à 18:40

i fear this does not just inclued the zombie units but also other mythos beasties from A!C… so i started to apply the "subtract from 9" solution


the 2 deep ones commandos (old value) 6, (9minus) 3

the two mi-go's (old) 5, (9minus) 4

master egon (old) 6, (9minus) 3

chtonian surfaced (old) 3, (9minus) 6

chtonian burrowed (old burrowerthing) 5

hmm.. should i apply this to the burrowerability's terrorstuff too?


hounds of tindalos (old) 5, (9minus) 4

hmm… wait a sec.. there is one in call1 pack with a value of … 3 *grmbl*

that does not fit snuggly with the 9minus-hack..


also, as percieved with my not-so-great understanding of numbers and stuff, the new rules from SoN make it harder to resist terror than the A!C ones. or do they?

if we look at master Egon, the old rules would let you pass a test with one supressed token on four out of six (roll anything but 5 and 6). as the new rules (assuming the 9minus value) would lower the success chance to two out of six (must roll 5+).

also in the old rules, units subject to terror from creatures in the same army got to test on a reduced terrorvalue. this seems to be no longer the case (or i did overlook it).


not sure if this goes in this topic or a new one, the mythos hunter /terror resistant abilities need a quick look too.

first i guessed that i could just count the A!C values as +X instead (1 becomes +1 ect)

but then prof. Deadman has already a +X value, and ernest hamilton got quite an overhaul in the A!C errata. lets just look at his mythoshunterthingie, the old one had terror resistant 2, the errata version mythos hunter +1.

the new mythos hunter ability is stronger than terror resistant, so it makes sense to not just convert the old value.


the new rules make sense to me and all, but to be honest i'm a bit sad that my A!C stuff and double "more zombies" punchies are so messed up now.

i dont mind about the zed's, as they are the same as the new ones and its just the mythos value. but if more A!C stuff is changing as much as hamilton did (and i didn look at the terrainboards yet.. wherent there ability symbols printed on?), i'd like to get/buy errata punchies or sticker sheets to fix it.


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [08/11/2015] à 19:37

Quote from Yuma on [08/11/2015] à 18:40

i fear this does not just inclued the zombie units but also other mythos beasties from A!C… so i started to apply the "subtract from 9" solution


You are correct, and I was being a bit facetious. Sorry about that. I have a twisted sense of humor. As I said in an earlier reply DPG is already aware and thinking about an integration guide of some variety. There is no official document yet.


The image of the updates version are all available in the downloads section. You don't have to guess about the numbers, you can just reference the updated images.


The zombie math works easily, so that is simple to allow the use of all the zombie in your SoN game. The other monster values changed a bit with the additional development and playtesting of SoN. I think the new system is much smoother, and can more easily account for the larger monsters (and there are some very large monsters).


I have said this before, but I will try to clarify my personal point of view on this: The A!C stuff was originally designed as an tie-in for HoN and as a stand alone property. SoN was coming later but had not been developed. It is not that big a surprise that later development showed a weakness in the existing system.


The A!C stuff is all internally consistent, and can be used as-is with the V1 A!C rules. There is no guide yet available to handle their integration with the rest of the SoN stuff — There is only so much development time available and a lot of things still in the pipeline.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [08/11/2015] à 20:33

my last post wasnt realy meant as a rant or squabblings of an upset customer.

more like an random amount of discovered rulescollisions to help whomever is tinkering with an integration guide.


and though i said i'm a bit sad about it, DPG has fixed the errata-dilema to my likeing so far. i'm sure they will this time too.


and i realy like the sticker-solution-idea to fix minor things like a missing or changed special ability. i have no clue about the difference in cost for errata punchies to such stickersheets, but those could be turned into a sort of "build your own hero/unit" or even "experience system for heroes" expansions too.

but i wander off topic..


i'll take a deeper look into this matter, and post more "hot spots" if i find any. tha last thing i want is development time drawn away from tasty new stuff 😉


(oh, and if there where stickers for mythos manifestation, i could make the alpha section werewolves cause terror… i realy should make a new topic about this^^ )


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [08/11/2015] à 21:32

Quote from Yuma on [08/11/2015] à 20:33

my last post wasnt realy meant as a rant or squabblings of an upset customer.

more like an random amount of discovered rulescollisions to help whomever is tinkering with an integration guide.


I appreciate the discussion. I do have to be careful sometimes between my personal views and any DPG opinion.


Quote from Yuma on [08/11/2015] à 20:33

I really like the sticker-solution-idea to fix minor things like a missing or changed special ability. I have no clue about the difference in cost for errata punchies to such stickersheets, but those could be turned into a sort of "build your own hero/unit" or even "experience system for heroes" expansions too.

but I wander off topic..


You should send this one to Axel. Given what they have mentioned about wanting to expand SoN into a more "Adventure" based system, that could work well. Present it to them


Quote from Yuma on [08/11/2015] à 20:33

(oh, and if there where stickers for mythos manifestation, i could make the alpha section werewolves cause terror… i realy should make a new topic about this^^ )


Heh. By all means, go for it. As you point out, that should be a different thread 🙂


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [09/11/2015] à 13:08

Huh? I have just punched out all the pieces of SoN and the other stuff and I have sorted everything in their own place in the plastic boxes I use to store them. It did not occure me to check the old zombies vs. the new zombies. I just assumed they were the same.


At least now I know there is this rules change and it doesn't hit me in the middle of the game! I will propably just write a small cheat sheet that lists the correct values and check that when there is a mixture of old/new zekes or monsters.


Thanks for bringing this to my attention.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [09/11/2015] à 22:34

i had a closer look today, and i have to admit that its not that grave an issue.


i'll list all the mythos manifetation related stuff again. where i found it, i add the new values. i still have problems with downloading, so i could not check the A!C units pdf. if someone finds new values there, please add them to the list.

where new values are missing, the "subtract from 9" solution is probably the best way to go in the meantime.


ere we go:

deep one commandos: (old) 6,

mi-go's: (old) 5,

master egon: (old) 6,

chtonian: (old) 3,

chtonian underground move: (old) 5, (new. A!C errata) 1

hounds of tindalos: (old) 5, (new. call1) 3

Suppurator field: (old) 6, (new. A!C errata) 2


Zombies: (old) 8, (new. call1) 1

Fat Zombie: (old) 7, (new. call1) 2

Mutant Zombie: (old) 6, (new. call1) 3

Zombie Dogs: (old) 8, (new. more zombies errata) 1


on board K1-B:

one printed MM sign (cells): with a value of (old) 7.

board K2-B:

3 signs (laboratory, summoning circle, enbalming room): (old) 4, 6, 7.

board K3-B:

3 signs (elder thing room, temple, hallway): (old) 4, 3, 5.


the "Master of the Dead" ability has a new symbol. that is not realy important. but imo i would be good to know how a model with MotD reacts to mythos manifestation/terror??


on the mythos hunter front i am still clueless on how to convert, or if at all?

especialy on all those badger commandoes it could remain "just" terror resistant, this way they are somewhat used to glibbering tentakles, but not necessary better at killing them. and the points cost could rest untouched. the officer could be changed from TR 2 to mythos hunter +1 (like hamilton was in the errata). bit of extra punch..

prof. Deadman already has a +3 symbol, useing this with the new rules would make him a bit more expensive though i guess.


so, hope this helps and any new found insight is much appreciated.


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [09/11/2015] à 22:58

Can you confirm on the printing quality and shade of these fine products?. . . I have some older original Cthulhu and zombies. . Are the new colors on the reprints much darker, sort of darker, not darker at all? . . .Trying to see if the boards will show a massive color shift on the newer products compared to the older. . Please show pictures if you would be so kind. . . Are these new products much darker and hard to read or is the printing on point just as before. . .Go Devil Pig!


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [10/11/2015] à 05:26

deep one commandos: (old) 6,new 2 on A!C download


mi-go's: (old) 5,new 3 on A!C download


master egon: (old) 6,new 2 on A!C download


chtonian: (old) 3,new 5 on A!C download


chtonian underground move: (old) 5, (new. A!C errata) 1


hounds of tindalos: (old) 5, (new. call1) 3same on A!C download


Suppurator field: (old) 6, (new. A!C errata) 2


Zombies: (old) 8, (new. call1) 1


Fat Zombie: (old) 7, (new. call1) 2


Mutant Zombie: (old) 6, (new. call1) 3


Zombie Dogs: (old) 8, (new. more zombies errata) 1


on board K1-B:


one printed MM sign (cells): with a value of (old) 7.new 1 on A!C download


board K2-B:


3 signs (laboratory, summoning circle, enbalming room): (old) 4, 6, 7.new 1,2,1on A!C download


board K3-B:


3 signs (elder thing room, temple, hallway): (old) 4, 3, 5.new 5,7,2 on A!C download


Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [10/11/2015] à 11:24

hello all!


Some answers 😉


1) Master of the dead:


This unit is affected by the Terror when he is suppressed.


2) Myth hunter conversion


So … the best way is to print the downloadable file I think and keep it near to you.


3) Ambush side and zombies


Zombies with ambush side has 2 problems:

– Ambush side: they miss the unambush symbol

– Unambush side: grey skull => red skull


4) Sticker solution


We think it's the best way to correct them. Follow us in the next month, and maybe a surprise will appear ^^


Best regards,


En recherche de stage maquettiste

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [10/11/2015] à 16:54

as it looks, i can download on days with even numbers only.. maybe i should have refused the ks-cthulhu unit, haveing HIM in the flat could not go well afterall.. at least i have the badger now 😉


Can you confirm on the printing quality and shade of these fine products?. . . I have some older original Cthulhu and zombies. . Are the new colors on the reprints much darker, sort of darker, not darker at all? . . .Trying to see if the boards will show a massive color shift on the newer products compared to the older. . Please show pictures if you would be so kind. . . Are these new products much darker and hard to read or is the printing on point just as before. . .Go Devil Pig!


the zed's from call 1 are indeed a bit darker, at least at first look.

it does so because the hue of green has changed a bit.

the unitcolorbands are darker, almost the same green as the rest of the bordercolor. the border itself has changed from a more olive green to a hmm.. greener green? 🙄 as before it has a darker bottompart and the top has a dark corner, but now you actually see, that this dark corner swirls into the green.


the pictures have also gone a bit darker, mainly on the green parts too. so gras is greener, zombieflesh too and the hound of tindalos looks more black/greyish.


great to hear the sticker-news. if the background will be translucent, you might consider some with building-access arrows too?


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [10/11/2015] à 19:25

Yeah, stickers would fix the zombies and monsters nicely without printing expensive replacements for so minor issue.


Meanwhile, I'll try not to break my brain with the super hard maths the conversion of old values to new values doubtlessly needs…


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [11/11/2015] à 13:33

@jvannucchi… about the color.. I do not have the original Cthulhu stuff from the HoN kickstarter but I have gotten everything else.


The shade is.. in my opinion.. darker than the original HoN stuff and is much closer in shade to St Mere Eglise board colors though it may be slightly lighter(slightly).. again.. my untrained old eyes


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [02/12/2015] à 08:41

Well, I'll be darned…


I finally checked out my zombies and A!C maps. Everything is the way it should be. I didn't realise I had bought second printing stuff through the SoN kickstarter… 😳


So my zombies and monsters and maps have the correct terror values.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [06/12/2015] à 21:44

Question: Is the "More Zombies" in the current Kickstarter the updated stats or just a reprint of the old stats?


Will make a difference I've I add them on since I don't want to mix old stat data with the SoH stuff.


Thanks.


Terror Value: Old Zombies, New Zombies.. incompatible? Posted on [07/12/2015] à 08:02

I bought the more zombies set in the SoN kickstarter and my zombies all have the updated stats. So presumably this kickstarter has the updated stats too.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

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