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Some errors and also Jury-rigged
Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [15/11/2015] à 16:26

Page 7 Refers to firing Arc, P.8


it doesn't exist in SoN on page 8


Page 11 refers to Demolition, p.17 , I think it means Destruction.


I think only the Sherman for the Mjestic has this abiity , so in effect items such as totems cnnot be destroyed even by a grenade (grenade bundle) , most non-line units e.g. Commandos, Rangers, Combat Engineers had access and usually carried a small amount of demolition charges, why would the rangers,Agents and Majestic forces not have access to them.


New equipment rules :- now that some are not automatically discarded after use but are subject to a Jury rigged roll (this should have transalated to mis-fire or depletion role) the surely they should be assigned to units or not assign as Many. each x 3 token that is not discarded will ahve an average of 3 uses before being discarded so that gives 9 uses for the same points.


I am just wondering if this was playtested , its a good idea and could reduce the number of tokens but is it balanced this way. In play you would alway use and only become cautious when down to one grenade marker and even if one unit runs out they would be magically resupplied.


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [15/11/2015] à 16:54

In the french version, on page 7 it states "damages on heavy vehicles, p.8" and on page 11 indeed "destruction, p.17".


Hope it helps !


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 06:05

Quote from starman on [15/11/2015] à 16:26

New equipment rules :- now that some are not automatically discarded after use but are subject to a Jury rigged roll (this should have transalated to mis-fire or depletion role) the surely they should be assigned to units or not assign as Many. each x 3 token that is not discarded will ahve an average of 3 uses before being discarded so that gives 9 uses for the same points.


I am just wondering if this was playtested , its a good idea and could reduce the number of tokens but is it balanced this way. In play you would alway use and only become cautious when down to one grenade marker and even if one unit runs out they would be magically resupplied.


I don't have my set yet, so I am not 100% certain what you mean.


The rules for Jury Rigged show a particular symbol and say:


The unit or marker with this Special Ability throws a die. If the result is equal to or greater than the value indicated in the symbol, the material no longer works.

Discard the marker.

I have looked through the preview images and don't even see a single instance of the Jury-rigged marker. And since it must be on a "unit or marker" can you tell me what markers or items possess that ability?


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Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 09:15

The grenade Markers definitely do , there may be others , If you look in the new rules PDF, you will notice that some markers say discard after use and others do not , it is on most of those that do not discard after use.


The old rules stated discard after ue (or similar) at the beginning of the equipment section. I checked and this has been removed from SoN rules.


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 09:19

Quote from kov on [15/11/2015] à 16:54

In the french version, on page 7 it states "damages on heavy vehicles, p.8" and on page 11 indeed "destruction, p.17".


Hope it helps !


Sorry No , There is no Firing Arc paragraph (as in HoN) it looks like they copied the reference but then used the Firing Arc space for something else.


The first point I was making about Demolition is that it may have changed to destruction and they did not change the reference.

The second point was that the Majestic(Allies) only have one unit that can utilise destruction. So how are totems destroyed.


I am posting here so DPG can pick up and include in their Mistakes or Translation issues – hence missing rules.


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 10:56

Citation de starman Le [16/11/2015] à 09:19

Sorry No , There is no Firing Arc paragraph (as in HoN) it looks like they copied the reference but then used the Firing Arc space for something else.


I was just trying to say that you should replace "firing arc" by "damages on heavy vehicles" and "demolition" by "destruction" (if we are talking about the sames sentences, that is)


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 14:03

Hello,


Some texts came from HoN rulesbook (Assault, Firing), but we removed the Firing Arc rules on the Firing and Assault pages in french and forgot to remove this text p.7 in english.


For Demolotion (We don't understand what the translator made with that), it's of course Destruction 😉


I think only the Sherman for the Mjestic has this abiity , so in effect items such as totems cnnot be destroyed even by a grenade (grenade bundle) , most non-line units e.g. Commandos, Rangers, Combat Engineers had access and usually carried a small amount of demolition charges, why would the rangers,Agents and Majestic forces not have access to them.


Because they have not yet the stuff (recruitment option) 😉 But if you play to HoN, you can play again some SoN scenarios and modify the army recruitment with some demolition charges.

Units with a Destruction value: Panzer IV (GE), Panzerschrieck (GE), Bazooka (US), Sherman M4A3(76)W (US), Star spawn (Myth)


New equipment rules :- now that some are not automatically discarded after use but are subject to a Jury rigged roll (this should have transalated to mis-fire or depletion role) the surely they should be assigned to units or not assign as Many. each x 3 token that is not discarded will ahve an average of 3 uses before being discarded so that gives 9 uses for the same points.


Sorry, I don't understand you.


About Jury-rigged: Imagine you want to use some grenade with this special ability. Before making its effects (attack roll), you must make the Jury-rigged roll :

– If it's a success, you can use the grenade normaly and discard the token

– If it's a miss, you discard the token without making any effect.


Discard after use: If you speak about "Offensive grenade" for example, we wrote "These grenades work in the same way as the grenades described just above." so, you discard these tokens after use. This text appears at the end of the paragraph. BUT, we miss to add "Discard after use" for the grenade, of course, it has this text.


En recherche de stage maquettiste

Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [16/11/2015] à 17:31

Quote from starman on [16/11/2015] à 09:19

The first point I was making about Demolition is that it may have changed to destruction and they did not change the reference.

The second point was that the Majestic(Allies) only have one unit that can utilise destruction. So how are totems destroyed.


I am posting here so DPG can pick up and include in their Mistakes or Translation issues – hence missing rules.


With regard to totems having structure and Majestic having only 1 unit that can damage them… I don't think that is a mistake.


First off, any structure that can be destroyed should have its Structure value indicated. That keeps the mechanics consistent in the Heroes System Tactical games.

Second, even if there were no CURRENT units capable of damaging them, that does not mean there will not be in the future. Experience in HoN says there will likely be other things in the future 🙂

Third, SoN is designed to be compatible with HoN, and there are many things in THAT game capable of Destruction already!


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Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 13:00

Thanks Axel


Quote from Axel on [16/11/2015] à 14:03


New equipment rules :- now that some are not automatically discarded after use but are subject to a Jury rigged roll (this should have transalated to mis-fire or depletion role) the surely they should be assigned to units or not assign as Many. each x 3 token that is not discarded will ahve an average of 3 uses before being discarded so that gives 9 uses for the same points.


Sorry, I don't understand you.


1. In The HoN Rules under on Page 13 Recruitment options it states

"Equipment recruitment options must be discarded after use."


2. In SoN rules this is no longer present.


3.Under the individual Equipment rules on some equipment it states Discard after use.

This is missing from grenades (I just checked it was also missing in HoN but because of the general rule noted above it did not matter)


4. because of the new Jury rigged mechanism I thought that they were not automatically discarded because the only reference to discarding was in Jury rigged when you fail a roll.


Note: in English Jury Rigged normally means booby trapped or more accurately designed/altered to fail. Misfire would be more appropriate , meaning failing to work, when it should not have.


5. Nowhere in SoN does it say check jury Rigged first . I will re read it when I get home there is no download of the rules on your website. The rules describe the Jury rigged separate from the equipment with that characteristic.

Using Jury rigged I associated it with running out of Ammo as this term is a deliberate action and not a luck based as in mis-fire.

Wrongly I assumed as in most games you check for depletion after you have fired but resolve your current fire.

Your new rules need to be added to the existing ones and the mistakes file.

Some I have talked to have not noticed the icon has been added to the grenades.

Is this mechanism being added to HoN?

New Rule


Quote from Axel on [16/11/2015] à 14:03

About Jury-rigged: Imagine you want to use some grenade with this special ability. Before making its effects (attack roll), you must make the Jury-rigged roll :

– If it's a success, you can use the grenade normaly and discard the token

– If it's a miss, you discard the token without making any effect.


Understood now – Grenades do not tend to misfire in that period , they may explode too early or bounce back on you so this is a strange new rule.


A little grenade story.

My Great Uncle jack appeared on the casualty list and signed off by The British expeditionary ford Deputy Adjutant General on 11.11.1918 Armistice day when "This NCO and two men were returning from front line at dawn from their listening post established in front of Front Line Trenches near berry AU BAC. men on this post took with them 2 bombs of French parttern in their pockets.. when jumping back into the trench this man knocked one of his bombs …against the side of the trench…causing it ot explode , and he was badky injured in the leg and died within a few minutes. "

The other men were also injured. Ironically he was not killed in action but from an accident..


My uncle his son went on to fight in the 2nd world war and lost his leg fighting in France ironic.


Quote from Axel on [16/11/2015] à 14:03

Discard after use: If you speak about "Offensive grenade" for example, we wrote "These grenades work in the same way as the grenades described just above." so, you discard these tokens after use. This text appears at the end of the paragraph. BUT, we miss to add "Discard after use" for the grenade, of course, it has this text.


I think you mean we intended them to be used as described above and we missed adding "Discard after use" for the grenade , of course it should have had this text.


On second reading I realised what you meant but it is written to say "it has this text" so for a minute I thought I was wrong.


Finally my thoughts are with you and your colleagues and all the families and friends of those who suffered or were killed following Fridays sick cowardly crime against all civilised people, by insane warmongers who try and fail to justify their crimes by referring to 800 year old wars falsely carried out in the name of religion and the yet they use the same weak excuse.


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 15:00

Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 13:00

Note: in English Jury Rigged normally means booby trapped or more accurately designed/altered to fail. Misfire would be more appropriate , meaning failing to work, when it should not have.


Actually, no. Jury-rigged comes from an old nautical term and means to build something out of the materials at-hand; to improvise.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jury-rig

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_rigging


Something of that nature is suspect as to its functionality, hence the roll before you can use it 🙂 Now, a booby-trap is by its nature usually jury-rigged, but that does not mean all jury-rigged items are booby traps.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 15:23

Ok thanks. Will you be publishing errata because this is a fundamental change, effectively creating a 66% failure rate, I had thought that was already built in with only three uses per purchase.


What was the design reasons behind this change?


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 15:23

Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 13:00

1. In The HoN Rules under on Page 13 Recruitment options it states

"Equipment recruitment options must be discarded after use."


2. In SoN rules this is no longer present.


p. 14, under "Recruitment Options" The "General Rules" includes a sentence just under the command unit symbol that states:


- The equipment recruitment options must be discarded after use

As to using Jury-rigged "first", that is a matter of interpretation, but I would agree that changing the wording from "no longer works" to "fails to work" would be clearer in English.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 15:30

Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 15:23

Ok thanks. Will you be publishing errata because this is a fundamental change, effectively creating a 66% failure rate, I had thought that was already built in with only three uses per purchase.


What was the design reasons behind this change?


I had thought the appearance of this rule in the "Special Abilities" section made it obvious, but I certainly failed to spell this out in prior posts so I will be specific:



  • Jury-Rigged is not a global rule.

  • Jury-Rigged is a Special Ability that applies only to items or units marked with the Jury-Rigged Special Ability.

  • There are a grand-total of 0 such items in the core box. So it does not change the game much at all, at least at present. [Edit to add: Well, this was wrong! There are several items, grenades and panzerfaust]


Apologies for not mentioning the section in my earlier post, it would likely have helped with your understanding earlier.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 16:56

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [17/11/2015] à 15:30


Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 15:23

Ok thanks. Will you be publishing errata because this is a fundamental change, effectively creating a 66% failure rate, I had thought that was already built in with only three uses per purchase.


What was the design reasons behind this change?


I had thought the appearance of this rule in the "Special Abilities" section made it obvious, but I certainly failed to spell this out in prior posts so I will be specific:



  • Jury-Rigged is not a global rule.

  • Jury-Rigged is a Special Ability that applies only to items or units marked with the Jury-Rigged Special Ability.

  • There are a grand-total of 0 such items in the core box. So it does not change the game much at all, at least at present.


Apologies for not mentioning the section in my earlier post, it would likely have helped with your understanding earlier.



I got all that but why add it to SoN and not HoN.


I realise you are just helping DPG out but do you know the reason why they added it?


Axel answered earlier and the confusion was from the rule for applying the Jury Rigged roll before using the equipment it is on was because it is missing from the rulebook.


I still don't know what purpose it serves fro grenades apart from on average changing three uses to two.


Your explanation is facts not why.


Missing Rules - Firing Arc and Demolition Posted on [17/11/2015] à 19:32

Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 16:56

I got all that but why add it to SoN and not HoN.


From Secret War Pig Sauce


Shadows will be clearly different from its historical predecessor by the focus on the characters, heroes or villains, on their interactions, evolution and on the stories they will live. Characters will be the main center of this range. One of our goal is to propose rules to make them evolve.


SoN has a different focus. HoN is at its heart a wargame, SoN is shaping up to be more of an "adventure" game.


[Edit: The rest of this was all in error so please ignore]


Quote from starman on [17/11/2015] à 16:56I still don't know what purpose it serves fro grenades apart from on average changing three uses to two,


Grenades are a hypothetical example use to illustrate a mechanic. There are no grenades with the Jury-rigged ability on them, at least that I can find. As such we have no idea of what cost such an item may have compared to its more reliable counterpart.


I don't mean to sound abrupt, but you are spending a lot of time worrying about a rule that does not currently come into play. When it does, it may well be on the sort of thing that is obviously a jury-rigged contraption at an understandable cost and make perfect sense. It may only appear on items that are found during searches or something along those lines. At this point it is all speculation.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Some errors and also Jury-rigged Posted on [18/11/2015] à 09:17

I see your confusion and I hope you see mine then my Grenades with jury rigged Icon on the stats side is a misprint ?


I will dig them out and take a picture tonight.. hoping I was not hallucinating.


Some errors and also Jury-rigged Posted on [18/11/2015] à 09:34

The Deep Ones grenades have the jury rigged icon. I don't understand what you want to know, Starman. It represents the fact that they are "homemade" and have a chance not to explode.


Some errors and also Jury-rigged Posted on [18/11/2015] à 15:27

Quote from starman on [18/11/2015] à 09:17

I see your confusion and I hope you see mine then my Grenades with jury rigged Icon on the stats side is a misprint ?


I will dig them out and take a picture tonight.. hoping I was not hallucinating.


Ah, Sorry about that. I failed to note your identification of the offending equipment! As I said at the start of this — I don't have my set. Now that I know exactly what to look for (Deep One grenades) I see it, barely. Again, sorry for my error.


Edit to add: No, I doubt this is a misprint.

But I don't see where this rises to the level of a "Fundamental change". Using language like "Has this been playtested?" lead me to believe you were saying that all equipment worked that way. For a couple of pieces of equipment such language indicates a stress level that seems to me far above what a cost variance and/or functionality change. I am not discounting your concern, but I will debate the need to do more than has been done — tag the equipment with a Special Ability. That is how tokens in both HoN and SoN work, they have the information related to the use of the token printed on the token.


The Deep-ones have other strengths the human forces do not (amphibious movement, Mythos manifestation, etc). So is it really a surprise they have a modifier on some of their equipment that makes it a bit weaker than that used by other factions? If that level of failure bothers you, then don't take that equipment.


Now my stance on this is entirely mine. My personal opinion has nothing to do with whether or not I continue to follow my directive of managing the forum and alerting DPG to concerns. I am debating you only as a fellow player of the game.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Some errors and also Jury-rigged Posted on [18/11/2015] à 22:50

Axel answered the question some time ago and confirmed the missing rules and process.


everyone else chipped in clearly to help.


My first post was basically factual with a few questions and probably because the rules were missing I made some wrong assumptions on how thy worked. Cleaared up by Axel.


However I think Nostradumas and Kov missed that and have continued trying to explain or contradict what was already resolved. i appreciate your help but also understand I am posting here for DPG to pick up and errata issue.


Seeking answers but no help which is why its called some errors…


But I don't see where this rises to the level of a "Fundamental change". Using language like "Has this been playtested was because without the process for Jury rigged I thought it was allowing a grenade counter to be used multiple times … not to determine if it worked before use.


Some errors and also Jury-rigged Posted on [31/10/2016] à 01:35

Piggybacking onto this threaf with a couple of rules questions that I could not find the answer to.


Scenario Three, SoN box, English languag.


1: Victory condition.

Taken Literally, the Deep Ones win, if they have a unit (Hero Gareth is the only one allowed to enter) iin the Cave by the end of round 8, even if there are also Americans/Majestic unit there.

Majestic wins of they alone have one or more unit in the cave at the end of round 8.

Is it a draw if no one has units in the cave at the end of round 8? It simply is not stated on the rules.

Thematically, I would assume that anything but a Majestic win (including an empty cave) is a Mythos victory)


2:: Tentacles

The Mythos player gets two tentacles, according to the rules, they can only be deployed im water squares. The only threeü water squares on the entire map are outside the deployment zone. Where are they deployed? I would guess that they are also allowed in the swamp spaces, as their amphibious ability allows them to move there, but its not a water space, so it technically is against the rules.


3: Large Hero:

Mythos deploys a Hero that has light vehicle armor and a counter size that is slightly bigger than a single square, but far from the two spaces of a tank. How is this unit moved? Like a vehicle? Does it have to pay 1 Movement to turn 45 degrees? Does it move forward only, using the narrow side? can ot move backward or sideways? This is especially important because of its ability to assault several squares, Units at once. How is the counter positioned to decide which opponents it touches?

quite complicated and in need of examples/clarification. Also, is this unit still infantry even though it has a light vehicle defense value? E.g. for effects or LOS.


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