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doubt about ZOC
doubt about ZOC posté le [08/02/2019] à 23:59

Sorry for the English again.


I have a question regarding the ZOC. In the manual says that an infantry can not move to an enemy ZOC.


But I bought the steam game to test the rules and be able to further improve my understanding with some tests. And in these tests it has been possible to stay in a space adjacent to an enemy infantry.


Could someone explain me better about this ZOC?


CLAUDIO MENDES

doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 00:52

You cannot move from a space of an enemies units ZoC to a space of the SAME UNITS ZoC. So if it is set up properly (or improperly depending on your point if view) you can move diagonally in a zig-zag between two different units ZoC but not straight through a units ZoC. The only exception to this is when you are assaulting. So if moving from a space in a ZoC to the very next space end in an assault it is legal! I think that pretty much explains everything. Sorry I would quote the rules but have to start work so dont have time to figure that out 😉


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 15:34

I'm sorry if I repeat anything, but I'm trying to understand.


1- So in no case can I stay in an adjacent square of an enemy unit, correct?


2- Except if it's for a robbery, correct?


3- I put an image on google drive (I can not put a straight image here). In the picture situation, The Rock can only shoot, not being able to move closer, correct? (he has no assault skill)


https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fUH2qZ_cv5onkIEXiJz6VVNSnuO3IybJ?usp=sharing


4- Note that in Photo 2, the game lets the soldier move and remain adjacent. In that case the steam game is not following the rules, correct?


5- In Photo 3, at Supply Phase, the German fire moved adjacent to my support. That should not happen, right?


6- Does this rule also work for buildings? That is, there can be no enemy adjacent to the building?


7- For light and heavy vehicles, this ZOC rule does not work, correct?


CLAUDIO MENDES

doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 16:45

Hi,


1 – Wrong : see on pg 7 of the rules book under MOVEMENT in the Zone of Control section. You are allowed to be in an adjacent square of an infantry ZOC but you can't move in that infantry ZOC again unless you leave its ZOC first. So yes, you can stay in an ennemy ZOC.


The picture on the left shows the ZOC of an infantry unit and the one on the right shows where an ennemy infantry can go with the blue arrows and dots. The red ones are forbidden because you are moving again in that infantry ZOC, wich is not allowed …


2 – Not robbery, assault only is allowed.


3 – The Rock can move adjacent to the ennemy.


4 – No. The Steam Game is right.


5 – No. It is allowed.


6 – Go have a good look at the picture on pg 12 of the rules book, middle picture on the left side and you can see two german units adjacent to a door with an american unit inside the building. Read carefully that section of the rules, they do mention that you can be adjacent to buildings with ennemy unit/s inside…


7 – Right.


Hope it is more clear for you now


Cheers


J. 😎


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 16:57

Quote from massamendes on [09/02/2019] à 15:34

I'm sorry if I repeat anything, but I'm trying to understand.


1- So in no case can I stay in an adjacent square of an enemy unit, correct?


That is not true… but without uploading a lot of graphics I am not sure I can explain this clearly. Let me see…


If you grab the Heroes of Stalingrad rulebook:

https://www.devil-pig-games.com/en/download/12558/

On p. 7 in the left-hand column, there is a graphic under a big, red "EXCEPTION" that shows movements allowed or not allowed regarding ZoC.


You see a Russian unit that can move next to a German unit (which is valid), but then cannot move WITHIN the German ZoC, so the only valid moves are to (1) move back OUT of the ZoC, or (2) Assault the German unit. You can move WITHIN a ZoC only if you are Assaulting.


Does that help?


Quote from massamendes on [09/02/2019] à 15:34

7- For light and heavy vehicles, this ZOC rule does not work, correct?


Well, this one is a bit odd.

Vehicles DO have a ZoC, but their ZoC does not affect enemy unit movement. Also note that Vehicles are not affected by enemy unit ZoC either 🙂


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doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 17:39

Quote from radar231 on [09/02/2019] à 16:45

Hi,


1 – Wrong : see on pg 7 of the rules book under MOVEMENT in the Zone of Control section. You are allowed to be in an adjacent square of an infantry ZOC but you can't not move again in that infantry ZOC again unless you leave its ZOC first. So yes, you can stay in an ennemy ZOC.


The picture on the left shows the ZOC of an infantry unit and the one on the right shows where an ennemy infantry can go with the blue arrows and dots. The red ones are forbidden because you are moving again in that infantry ZOC, wich is not allowed …


2 – Not robbery, assault only is allowed.


3 – The Rock can move adjacent to the ennemy.


4 – No. The Steam Game is right.


5 – No. It is allowed.


6 – Go have a good look at the picture on pg 12 of the rules book, middle picture on the left side and you can see two german units adjacent to a door with an american unit inside the building. Read carefully that section of the rules, they do mention that you can be adjacent to buildings with ennemy unit/s inside…


7 – Right.


Hope it is more clear for you now


Cheers


J. 😎



WOW…


You've cleared everything now.


The ZOC has nothing to do with what I imagined. It is not that you have a limit that can not be exceeded, but that you can not continue the advance by having a unit there.


I do not know if I said it right, but I understood your explanation … that's what matters hahahaha.


Thanks a lot for the help


CLAUDIO MENDES

doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 17:40

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [09/02/2019] à 16:57


Quote from massamendes on [09/02/2019] à 15:34

I'm sorry if I repeat anything, but I'm trying to understand.


1- So in no case can I stay in an adjacent square of an enemy unit, correct?


That is not true… but without uploading a lot of graphics I am not sure I can explain this clearly. Let me see…


If you grab the Heroes of Stalingrad rulebook:

https://www.devil-pig-games.com/en/download/12558/

On p. 7 in the left-hand column, there is a graphic under a big, red "EXCEPTION" that shows movements allowed or not allowed regarding ZoC.


You see a Russian unit that can move next to a German unit (which is valid), but then cannot move WITHIN the German ZoC, so the only valid moves are to (1) move back OUT of the ZoC, or (2) Assault the German unit. You can move WITHIN a ZoC only if you are Assaulting.


Does that help?


Quote from massamendes on [09/02/2019] à 15:34

7- For light and heavy vehicles, this ZOC rule does not work, correct?


Well, this one is a bit odd.

Vehicles DO have a ZoC, but their ZoC does not affect enemy unit movement. Also note that Vehicles are not affected by enemy unit ZoC either 🙂



This rulebook help a lot to compare with the HON.


Thanks a lot bro


CLAUDIO MENDES

doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 18:33

Just to add, you can use the ZOC to block path's to objectives by using more than one infantry unit. If you position them with 2 squares in between like this:


[ zoc ][ zoc ][ zoc ][ zoc ]

[ inf ][ zoc ][ zoc ][ inf ]


The zoc in between them will make it no one can move through. Except with an assault.


When you surpress enemy units, the ZOC also disapears.


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 18:46

Ditto JANHOOS 😉


J. 😎


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 21:40

JanHoos. From what I understand if you place them like that you can zig zag between them. Because I thought you could move from one ZoC to another. As long as you are leaving the first one. Like so:

/

(ZOC)(ZOC)(MOVE)(ZOC)(ZOC)(ZOC)

(ZOC)(INF)(ZOC)(MOVE)(INF)(ZOC)

(ZOC)(ZOC)(MOVE)(ZOC)(ZOC)(ZOC)

/

Is this not legal? Beause that would explain why I can never defend an objective! 😮


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 22:18

A few minutes ago I just lost scenario 3 when my opponent zig zag moved between my orks and used a card for extra movement to secure the objective. And the scenario ends as soon as this is achieved. I had no chance to re-capture.


So it is legal to move in to and out of ZOC. As long as you do not move within the ZOC of the same unit.


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 23:07

hmmm! Would be nice if you could zig zag. It always feels a bit cheap using ZOC to defend an objective or prevent an enemy from moving through.


doubt about ZOC posté le [09/02/2019] à 23:20

From what I understand you can as long as there is two spaces between. Because If there was only one you wouldn't be leaving the enemies ZoC.


doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 02:02

Hmmm. After reading through the upcoming HoSta rules and the compendium rules it doesnt really say. Nostra? Would you happen to know the official rules on zig zagging between two ZoCs as long as they don't overlap? Thank you!


doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 06:44

Quote from Chuckles20x on [10/02/2019] à 02:02

Hmmm. After reading through the upcoming HoSta rules and the compendium rules it doesnt really say. Nostra? Would you happen to know the official rules on zig zagging between two ZoCs as long as they don't overlap? Thank you!


Can you quote the rules that you say do not cover the issue? I would like to understand where the confusion is coming from.


I don't have my rules text with me, so please quote the section on ZoC and movement.


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doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 07:37

This is taken from the Compendium, Page 12.


"ZONE OF CONTROL

Any unit exercises a zone of control (ZoC) over the squares around it, provided the unit has a clear or obcured line of sight to those squares (see line of sight p.13).

If one of the squares is impassable to the unit, the square is not part of its ZoC.


An infantry unit can freely move into or out of an enemy's ZoC but not through it."


Then there's a picture showing the ZoC and where the infantry can and cannot move, but in the picture there is only 1 enemy unit exercising ZoC.


There is no rules about invidual enemies ZoC being separate. Enemy ZoC is enemy ZoC, no matter from how many enemies it comes from.

I have never played it so that you can hop from one enemys ZoC into another another enemys ZoC and then back again into the first enemys ZoC (i.e. ziczaccing).

That seems very gamey to me.


A ZoC has only one function, to stop enemy movement. It compensates for the Supply phase movement where you can move freely without fearing reprisals (opportunistic fire shooting).


Perhaps the confusion stems from the Assault rules?


From page 45 "the attacker is victorious"


"Defender was an infantry unit

The unit must immediately fall back to one of the three squares away from the attacker. This retreat is a forced move and is therefore not considered a movement action.

If none of these three squares can be entered, the defending infantry unit is immediately Destroyed."


Then a green example box says:


"The unit can retreat from the ZoC of an enemy unit, but is destroyed if the retreat would move if from one square in an enemy's ZoC to another in that same ZoC."


This is the only place I can find where the rules talk bout invidual enemys ZoC and this rule pertains only to Forced move, not a regular move, so it cannot be applied to normal movement.


This is my take on the rules using the Compendium book (i.e. ziczac is not a good movement since it is moving from a ZoC square into a ZoC square without being an assault.)


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 08:45

I hate to disagree with Colhammer on this one, but I am going to have to do just that. Fair warning: This is a bit of a hot-button issue for me, but it is not Colhammer's fault 🙂


Now I have access to the HoSta PDF, I will get started. I bring the HoSta up for a specific reason which I will get into in a bit.


From the HoSta:


An infantry Unit may move INTO or OUT OF an enemy Infantry Unit's ZoC, but cannot move WITHIN one.


There is an important difference between this version and the Compendium. It took me days of discussion during the editing of the HoSta book to get everyone to understand that there is a big difference in clarity between THROUGH and WITHIN in this situation. Also, note that this is all about a single enemy unit's ZoC.


If you say you cannot move THROUGH a unit's ZOC, that means you cannot enter and then leave the ZoC, or even enter it at all, depending on the definition of THROUGH you want to use.


I finally got them to realize the correct term that meets their actual concept and mechanics is WITHIN. A Unit can move into a ZoC. They can then exit that ZoC (which would be "through" the ZoC) but they cannot move WITHIN that enemy ZoC — from one space in the ZoC to another space in that same ZoC. WIthin is key because it limits the restriction to an individual enemy's ZoC.


That is what is shown on the HoSta rules and that is how it works.


A More detailed example:

Unit A can move INTO Unit B's ZoC, then move OUT of Unit B's ZoC and INTO Unit C's ZoC. They can then move OUT of Unit C's ZoC and back INTO Unit B'z ZoC. All of that would be legal.

But Unit A may not move from one space to another space if both are WITHIN Unit B's ZoC, unless they have declared an Assault on Unit B.


Think of it as the difference between a unit circling around and coming only just within reach briefly. There is not enough time to react. But if the unit just crosses directly in front of you, you take the shot 🙂


Or to put it another way… a single unit can be easily bypassed, but a cluster of units will make an enemy think twice. I could as easily argue that using only a single unit to prevent an enemy from getting past is pretty "gamey", you should have to use a line of forces to prevent them from passing. "gamey" depends on your perspective 😉


Just to back it up, check out the Assault rules for the part about Defending infantry losing:


The retreating unit may ENTER an enemy Zone of Control this way, but it is Destroyed if the retreat forces it to move WITHIN an enemy ZoC.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 09:02

Thanks for that explanation! And good job on that terminology.


Looks like we can zig zag through a defensive zoc! That's something I'm happy with.


doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 11:35

I based my reply on the Compendium rules. But obviously HoSTA rules are more current ones and if they define the ZoC rules this way, then this is how I will play them from now on.


I still don't like the image of troops bouncing from one enemy to other and back again, but them's the rules. 😉


There is actually a precedent in the Compendium rules that point to this reading of the ZoC rules as when you do the forced move, entering a ZoC doesn't kill you, but moving within a ZoC does. I guess HoSTA rules just expand this to the movement rules.


Anyway, I stand corrected. 🙂


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

doubt about ZOC posté le [10/02/2019] à 19:07

Quote from Colhammer on [10/02/2019] à 11:35

There is actually a precedent in the Compendium rules that point to this reading of the ZoC rules as when you do the forced move, entering a ZoC doesn't kill you, but moving within a ZoC does. I guess HoSTA rules just expand this to the movement rules.


Not "expanded into movement rules", but rather that this is how it was always supposed to work. We clarified that with DPG first to make sure.


So the HoSta rules now more clearly state the way the rules mechanics were supposed to work.


I hope you are not too disappointed.


Remember that two overlapping ZoC will prevent a zigzag if it really bothers you.


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Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

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